The State of High End Audio

[Phelonious Ponk]

So this is what I am gathering so far from this thread: Tim thinks High End is nothing but a luxury. Someone else wrote that the High End has nothing to do with "high fidelity". We are asking for examples of mid priced high fidelity systems which we can hear for ourselves. The small designers are hoping to sell from dealer networks so they can be considered High End. But dealers are disappearing because the young whom we need involved to grow the high end are shopping elsewhere, perhaps from on line cooperatives of boutique manufacturers. I'm suddenly not so optimistic about the High End which is increasingly too expensive to buy and increasingly focused on the Far Eastern market. But, now there is another model.

Perhaps the High End is being replaced by the High Fidelity (What is Better Forum) at mid level prices? If so, should we not be celebrating? That sounds like a good state of affairs for the audiophile.

I think a more accurate assessment is that what we currently call "high end" happened as a response to the mainstreaming of high fidelity. When any kid with a few hundred bucks could go buy a Kenwood receiver and a pair of KLHs that measured better than the obsessive hobbyists' tube amps and horns, well, that couldn't possibly be right, and "high end" was born. Then digital came along and made matters even worse. By every objective metric, a basic CD player made most turntables look like bad table radios. And of course that wouldn't do. So high fidelity was marginalized. "High end" moved in to replace it. Then, as will happen in a capitalistic system (God bless America), people saw opportunity written all over the trend. Price, a much higher price, didn't have to justified by anything but perception. You could get more money for big feet to go under a turntable than you could get for the CDP that kicked its butt. A few decades later, here we are.

Now, none of this means that there isn't really good stuff that falls under the "high end" banner; there is. But the overwhelming majority of it is grossly overpriced, and if it is not, it is highly suspect, and perception does with that the things that perception does.

Tim

 

[rbbert]

Just another dissent on putting the EA's into a $30k system. I've heard them twice and liked them both times, but I think they're more appropriate in a $15k system than a $30k one (coincidentally that's only a little more than my system price, although not at MSRP, even though I bought everything new).

 

[rbbert]

Tim, I think you missed the boat somewhere. "high-end" started presumably in the early '70's when Stereophile and TAS started initially recommending very modestly priced stuff that sounded substantially better than that Kenwood receiver and KLH speakers at only a slightly higher price. Price inflation is a relatively recent phenomenon..

 

[Folsom]

Slightly better speakers from 1970 would have trouble beating Elac's $300 speakers of today, depending on what you wanted in sound. This doesn't include Altec, which wasn't exactly available to consumers through electronic stores.

 

[PeterA]

I think a more accurate assessment is that what we currently call "high end" happened as a response to the mainstreaming of high fidelity. When any kid with a few hundred bucks could go buy a Kenwood receiver and a pair of KLHs that measured better than the obsessive hobbyists' tube amps and horns, well, that couldn't possibly be right, and "high end" was born. Then digital came along and made matters even worse. By every objective metric, a basic CD player made most turntables look like bad table radios. And of course that wouldn't do. So high fidelity was marginalized. "High end" moved in to replace it. Then, as will happen in a capitalistic system (God bless America), people saw opportunity written all over the trend. Price, a much higher price, didn't have to justified by anything but perception. You could get more money for big feet to go under a turntable than you could get for the CDP that kicked its butt. A few decades later, here we are.

Now, none of this means that there isn't really good stuff that falls under the "high end" banner; there is. But the overwhelming majority of it is grossly overpriced, and if it is not, it is highly suspect, and perception does with that the things that perception does.

Tim

I don't know about basic CD players making most turntables look like bad tables radios. Perhaps you meant to write "sound like" rather than "look like".

I think the Linn, Technics and Micro tables at the dawn of the digital revolution sounded considerably better than some table radio of the period. And the debates about measuring better or sounding better will continue, I'm sure. The real test is which devices people prefer to buy and live with. If the mid priced and superb measuring digital devices are indeed superior sounding, then audiophiles will seek them out, especially the young and aspiring audiophile. And the rest of us will be able to improve our sound by selling our overpriced gear and buying newer, cheaper, superior sounding gear. That is all reason for celebration and optimism about the future of our beloved hobby. I guess time will tell.

I do agree with you about one thing: Having the time to find, clean and properly play a good vinyl record on a system that transports you to the recorded performance, is, in this modern world, indeed a true luxury. And I am grateful for the opportunity to have this luxury.

 

[asiufy]

I've heard many speakers that use the same drivers, my opinion is valid thanks. Don't tell me what to post or where to post it.imo, it's idiotic to buy a $4k speaker with. $30k system budget, but whatever, you're opinion is no more or less valid than my own.

Sorry, I didn't even knew you could have an opinion of a piece of audio gear without listening to it. Just because you heard many bookshelf speakers, possibly (and here I say POSSIBLY) made with the same drivers, does not entitle you to an opinion on ALL bookshelf speakers made with drivers X or Y.

"If you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion".

The day this becomes a rule in this forum (any forum actually), we'd be all MUCH better off.

 

[asiufy]

I'm on your side Dave! I don't know what the proper price ratio should be, but 1/7th or 1/8th only of total system cost makes no sense.

See, what if they were $16k? Would you be OK with that same speaker, if the price was $16k?

The manufacturer goes ahead and produces a groundbreaking product, that sounds a lot better than its price indicate, only to have people neatly pigeonhole with some random price ratio... I guess they'd rather buy that famous speaker brand that costs $70k and looks/sounds like a $15k speaker...

If you had heard it, and you think its performance is not up to the rest of the equipment (and some of the suggested gear isn't!), it would be a lot more reasonable than just saying "oh it's too cheap"...

 

[Blizzard]

Sorry, I didn't even knew you could have an opinion of a piece of audio gear without listening to it. Just because you heard many bookshelf speakers, possibly (and here I say POSSIBLY) made with the same drivers, does not entitle you to an opinion on ALL bookshelf speakers made with drivers X or Y.

"If you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion".

The day this becomes a rule in this forum (any forum actually), we'd be all MUCH better off.

Alex is against every product he doesn't sell, or doesn't have an over-inflated MSRP due to being sold through a dealer network. But really can you blame him? He's a dealer after all.

It wouldn't be very advantageous to advocate products you don't sell as being superior would it? Or am I missing something??

 

[rbbert]

Alex is against every product he doesn't sell, or doesn't have an over-inflated MSRP due to being sold through a dealer network. But really can you blame him? He's a dealer after all.

An incredibly inappropriate post

 

[asiufy]

Blizzard,

OK, you got it. Last time I post here. You should not be allowed to post slanderous comments like this, specially since you're officially affiliated with this site. You should know better.


Everybody else,

Thanks for all the fish. You all know where to find me.

Bye,
Alex

 

[Blizzard]

Blizzard,

OK, you got it. Last time I post here. You should not be allowed to post slanderous comments like this, specially since you're officially affiliated with this site. You should know better.


Everybody else,

Thanks for all the fish. You all know where to find me.

Bye,
Alex

How is that slanderous?? Just because my point is better than yours it means it's slanderous? Comments like this sound much more slanderous to me:

"DaveC, have you heard either, or you're just speculating, like Blizzard?"

"Again, please use Blizzard's area for comments on hardware you haven't heard, as he thrives on that. It'd be great if we could keep opinions, specially one that relates to value, to products we have heard"


Please don't try to attack my integrity if you don't want me to point out the obvious.

 

[NorthStar]

Sorry, I didn't even knew you could have an opinion of a piece of audio gear without listening to it. Just because you heard many bookshelf speakers, possibly (and here I say POSSIBLY) made with the same drivers, does not entitle you to an opinion on ALL bookshelf speakers made with drivers X or Y.

"If you haven't heard it, you don't have an opinion".

The day this becomes a rule in this forum (any forum actually), we'd be all MUCH better off.

I have an opinion on a UHD OLED LG curved TV that I have never had @ home but only have read about in several articles and seen pictures of.
It is my right to have an opinion on things that I have an opinion on...without owning or buying or selling or importing.

Some people who own that TV also have an opinion on it, and others who only tested it with their own tests have theirs too.
We take the balance of opinions and form our own. We ask people's opinion and if they have own the TV or not. If yes, we ask more details to see if their opinion is valid.
If not, we can ask what their opinion is based on then, and we have the right to accept or not accept any opinion. Disrespect an opinion no. We're better than that.

That's all, very simple. Some experience means dick sometimes, and some readings with links have more substance @ other times. We're all here to learn and make our mind on the info provided...nothing is the absolute bible...but respect is always the first rule. If we validate an opinion we are free to say it or not, and same the other way around. /// Always with the utmost respect.

That's my opinion Alex. :b

 

[NorthStar]

An incredibly inappropriate post

How come Robert?

 

[DaveyF]

Alex is against every product he doesn't sell, or doesn't have an over-inflated MSRP due to being sold through a dealer network. But really can you blame him? He's a dealer after all.

It wouldn't be very advantageous to advocate products you don't sell as being superior would it? Or am I missing something??

Blizzard, I don't know you and you don't know me. I have met Alex on a couple of occasions and I can tell you what you posted about him is not only uncalled for, but IMO extremely unctuous and disgraceful. You have posted many
'theories' about this product or that product that you clearly have never even heard, and probably never even knew about before coming on this forum. I say to you that you may want to re-think your comments to the members here
and step back before posting such a disgraceful post as you gave to Alex.
If you were banned from this forum for such a post, I suspect after some reflection on your part, you may understand why.

 

[Blizzard]

Blizzard, I don't know you and you don't know me. I have met Alex on a couple of occasions and I can tell you what you posted about him is not only uncalled for, but IMO extremely unctuous and disgraceful. You have posted many
'theories' about this product or that product that you clearly have never even heard, and probably never even knew about before coming on this forum. I say to you that you may want to re-think your comments to the members here
and step back before posting such a disgraceful post as you gave to Alex.
If you were banned from this forum for such a post, I suspect after some reflection on your part, you may understand why.

Oh so it's ok to slander my name with posts that are based on BS, but when I point out the obvious, I'm the bad guy? You guys are buddies. Of course you are going to stick up for him. I'm discussing disruptive technology, and ways of doing business that will threaten the well being of the established dealer network system. Do you think I'm expecting the dealers to support this?

Why don't we just adapt, instead of revolt?? The future isn't going anywhere anytime soon . Perhaps listen to the lyrics of this song very closely. Bob Dylan understood this 50 years ago, why can't we today??

[video=vimeo;93130150]https://vimeo.com/93130150[/video]

 

[DaveyF]

Oh so it's ok to slander my name with posts that are based on BS, but when I point out the obvious, I'm the bad guy? You guys are buddies. Of course you are going to stick up for him.

What post was based on BS? Alex is a friend,what has that to do with anything?
Personally, I wouldn't be out on a public forum stating things about gear that you clearly have a) no experience with and b) have never even heard for yourself.
To then call into question someone's ethics on the same public forum, without even having any basis for such judgment is IMHO not only disgraceful behavior but also clearly slander.
You sir, seriously need to re-think your position.

 

[Blizzard]

What post was based on BS? Alex is a friend,what has that to do with anything?
Personally, I wouldn't be out on a public forum stating things about gear that you clearly have a) no experience with and b) have never even heard for yourself.
To then call into question someone's ethics on the same public forum, without even having any basis for such judgment is IMHO not only disgraceful behavior but also clearly slander.
You sir, seriously need to re-think your position.

You have no idea what I've heard or haven't heard. I'm basing my remarks on observation's which can be verified, because they are on the records of the forum. For example, I start a thread on MSB tech, and how I like how they are built, and he's my best friend, all over the thread. I mention, Hegel offering a great now DAC, and "Poof" there's Alex, right on my side. Bit any mention of any product that's not on his signature, and now I'm a troll, with no experience.

But please don't take my word on it. Because it's all on record.

 

[DaveyF]

You have no idea what I've heard or haven't heard. I'm basing my remarks on observasion which can be verified, because they are on the records of the forum. For example, I start a thread on MSB tech, and how I like how they are built, and he's my best friend, all over the thread. I mention, Hegel offering a great now DAC, and "Poof" there's Alex, right on my side. Bit any mention of any product that's not on his signature, and now I'm a troll, with no experience.

But please don't take my word on it. Because it's all on record.

Simple question for you Blizzard, have you actually heard the MSB Select DAC?
Just FYI, I am absolutely no fan of the EA Micro MM One's....and I have heard them on numerous occasions ( Have you heard these speakers?). However, that's not the point here.

 

[Blizzard]

Simple question for you Blizzard, have you actually heard the MSB Select DAC?
Just FYI, I am absolutely no fan of the EA Micro MM One's....and I have heard them on numerous occasions ( Have you heard these speakers?). However, that's not the point here.

No I haven't heard it. But I started a thread about the modular form factor of the DAC because I like how they did the layout.

 

[PeterA]

I'm confused Blizzard. I though you wrote in a post in this thread about five or so pages ago that you are banned from writing in this thread. I think this thread which has an interesting topic is going downhill very fast now just like so many others have recently.