The State of High End Audio

[Folsom]

There would be more music that wasn't recorded and mastered to sound like they want us to turn it off... if people could afford to care a little bit. But even many who can, don't.

But as much as I want change, I'm not going to utterly burden myself by trying to make others make it happen. I have a life to live, too.

My biggest aspiration for public opinion is getting my power conditioners into nice establishments that play music for bar/food (not bar food type places), and treat venues. I swear I'll utterly transform how people think music in these places should sound.

 

[andrew_stenhouse]

It would be better for everyone if wealth was more evenly distributed.

Now there we agree.

 

[NorthStar]

How can we make that happen? :b

The poor giving to the rich what they don't have, and the rich giving to the poor what they don't need.

 

[Folsom]

How can we make that happen? :b

Stand up for people's wages and benefits. Stand against free trade agreements. Pay employees well/make a business that does. Buy goods from businesses that reflect these values.

Many people that are wealthy would be much more wealthy if people in their country had money to spend. It's those that are tied to companies that make the pleb goods (trash), like Warren Buffet, that will lose.

 

[NorthStar]

Stand up for people's wages and benefits. Stand against free trade agreements. Pay employees well/make a business that does. Buy goods from businesses that reflect these values.

Many people that are wealthy would be much more wealthy if people in their country had money to spend. It's those that are tied to companies that make the pleb goods (trash), like Warren Buffet, that will lose.

Interesting; the road to High End Audio.

 

[nc42acc]

This thread is taking a very political turn.

 

[Folsom]

NorthStar, young people that appreciate hand made goods may help the economy. As they buy clothing that reflects values it forces a change in consumer outlook for inflation. It's based on goods like T-shirts and what not now. It'll have to rearrange when the standard is $100 for a shirt that is ethically made within your country, for example. As real world value of goods is appreciated and the affordability gap is forced to narrow, it will reduce the costs of high end audio.

 

[Folsom]

This thread is taking a very political turn.

Sorry. I think the problem is that it was from the start. Maybe part of the issue is that it wasn't exactly a positive one to start? It would be better to talk about the good things in high in audio. Personally I think there's lots of new exciting things coming about.

 

[KeithR]

I think there are great opportunities for an under $30k (at retail) total high end system.

consider the Evolution Acoustics Micro Ones, $4k plus the darTZeel LHC-208 "danalog" dac-pre-amplifier; around $15k leaving $10k for any number of $3k phono stages and $7k tt/arm/carts. in a few months there will be the Micro Two's (around $10k) which will be more full range than the Micro One's.

the dart 208 hits waaay above it's price point as a dac and as an amplifier. I view it as sounding much like my 458's. this little box gets you far into the heart of high end performance yet still includes a great (darTZeel) analog preamp.

you would need your own server.

I've spent hours listening to this exact system (with a Mac Pro as the server) at multiple audio shows. it's real world right now and killer.

or you could add a JL113 or other subwoofer instead of the upgrade to the speakers.

Monitors plus an integrated for a 30k system? I'll politely disagree with Mike here on value.

 

[asiufy]

Monitors plus an integrated for a 30k system? I'll politely disagree with Mike here on value.

A $30k complete analog AND digital system. With DAC, streamer, TT, amp, volume control, everything. Given how crazy some prices are getting, it's really not a bad deal. If you just need digital, it's $4k+$15k.

I know you've heard the Micro Ones, but don't knock out the LHC-208 just yet

We've set up a system like this:

Evolution Micro One - $4000
darTZeel LHC-208 - $15000
VPI Prime - $4000
Ortofon Cadenza Red - $1300
iFi Phono - $500

Total: $24800
Add cables, and you're still below $30k.

For a small(-ish) room, it's a damn fine system, that could be slowly upgraded (say, a Sutherland phono for $2000, etc).

 

[Mike Lavigne]

A $30k complete analog AND digital system. With DAC, streamer, TT, amp, volume control, everything. Given how crazy some prices are getting, it's really not a bad deal. If you just need digital, it's $4k+$15k.

I know you've heard the Micro Ones, but don't knock out the LHC-208 just yet

We've set up a system like this:

Evolution Micro One - $4000
darTZeel LHC-208 - $15000
VPI Prime - $4000
Ortofon Cadenza Red - $1300
iFi Phono - $500

Total: $24800
Add cables, and you're still below $30k.

For a small(-ish) room, it's a damn fine system, that could be slowly upgraded (say, a Sutherland phono for $2000, etc).

I posted that this morning in post #5

great minds think alike.

 

[Ron Resnick]

This thread is taking a very political turn.

Thank you, Marty. You beat me to posting that!

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

And if you absolutely must go passive so you can reserve the right to screw up a good thing somewhere down the road, how about a Benchmark DAC pre ($2000), a Benchmark AHB2 ($3000), a pair of Revel M106 (<$2000) and a couple of Revel B1s ($1300). There. You'e got the music from the recording, tweak your room, your ears, your attitude to taste. Well under 10 grand. And jeez, that's just one example of very high fidelity without the high end price; you can get so close to this for half the money it isn't even funny. "High end" is a luxury category. Period.

Tim

 

[Purite Audio]

And if you absolutely must go passive so you can reserve the right to screw up a good thing somewhere down the road, how about a Benchmark DAC pre ($2000), a Benchmark AHB2 ($3000), a pair of Revel M106 (<$2000) and a couple of Revel B1s ($1300). There. You'e got the music from the recording, tweak your room, your ears, your attitude to taste. Well under 10 grand. And jeez, that's just one example of very high fidelity without the high end price; you can get so close to this for half the money it isn't even funny. "High end" is a luxury category. Period.

Tim

There is a Spanish audio group, Matrix? perhaps they carry out unsighted comparisons between really expensive and extremely moderately priced systems inthe same room but crucially unsighted , I wil try and find a link, I suspect you can guess their conclusions.
Keith.

 

[Folsom]

Diminishing returns is not not returns. While I believe a system can be built for $10k that'll turn heads, that doesn't mean I believe something more costly wouldn't be better in anyway whatsoever. My point is more that it's possible for someone to have very good sound if they can afford a modest hobby.

 

[Rodney Gold]

Buying a hifi for status is a rarity..one generally wants to show off ones "status" toys.. not much opportunity to do so to all and sundry.. maybe a select few *might* appreciate .. most ordinary folk have no idea of what a magico or a wilson or a Giya is..
High end is bought as those that can afford it want the very best within their taste/price range to chase the elusive eargasm. No compromise stuff..

After the kids have gone and you have made a little moolah spare.. it's just a little well deserved self indulgence...and then you die.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Diminishing returns is not not returns. While I believe a system can be built for $10k that'll turn heads, that doesn't mean I believe something more costly wouldn't be better in anyway whatsoever. My point is more that it's possible for someone to have very good sound if they can afford a modest hobby.

If you know the capability of the right <$10k system, and you have the objectivity to see it, you'll understand that the diminishing returns pale next to price-inflating preference. Preference for prestige. Preference for coloration. Preference for magic unmeasured, found in whatever you prefer, for whatever reasons.

Tim

 

[PeterA]

If you know the capability of the right <$10k system, and you have the objectivity to see it, you'll understand that the diminishing returns pale next to price-inflating preference. Preference for prestige. Preference for coloration. Preference for magic unmeasured, found in whatever you prefer, for whatever reasons.

Tim

Tim, these kind of posts from you and others actually have me now quite interested in hearing what the possibilities really are. Do you, or anyone else, know of such a system in the greater Boston area which I could perhaps hear by contacting the owner? I welcome any suggestions and am very curious about the level of sound that could be achieved for less than $10K. Thank you.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi
I believe that flight toward increasingly higher prices and their deification on the altar of High End Audio by reviewers has created a perverse effect on the High End. A few examples: I didn't know about Vapor Audio until its mention in a thread by DaveC this very 2016 year. From a person I know very well and owner of a superlative Audio System., their woodwork and finish is impressive and second to none, he hasn't unfortunately heard them yet. They manage to sell a full range speaker for about $13K and I am sure this price wasn't chosen by chance. I have never heard them so can't comment on their worth. I do however know that once they are heard they will be very "good for their price". It has become automatic in audiophile circle. SOTA in the mind of most audiophiles or as I see it in this forum is defined by a very vague number ... It has to be much higher than the median or maybe the average price... Must be a little bit higher than the usual price tag. So it is unlikely for example that a 10 K Tonearm will be considered SOTA since now there are many at $30K... It has to be very close to that new line in the sand or higher then it is SOTA... a $5000 tonearm? No way it could be SOTA nowadays, the ceiling has moved up. Of course a SOTA needs to be anointed by some authority... But the MSRP in itself lift the item to at least be worthy of the coveted SOTA status, even if the brand is unknown reputation of its designer is one of those exceptions that will have an audiophile drop their shyness toward new products then again those come at a commensurable price.
In such a cloudy environment and more insidiously in the absence of a metrics, what an innovative designer to do? Pricing his product to reach as many as possible therefore, relatively modestly is a sure way to have his product fall into the "good for its price" category, regardless of the inherent or tested (in the High End the surest way to be dismissed) qualities or superiority. I do see some exceptions mainly in the digital realm where it seems we are forced to admit that innovation is not price-related and those come and go rather quickly, so there is the Lampi being some kind of a king in the realm of DSD but it still seems somewhat not exactly perceived as to be at the level of the DSC (is that one DSD BTW?)
Brand has also an effect in High End Audio. Seriously good subwoofer brands such as SVS or Seaton will automatically not be worthy of the audiophile epithet, even less that of SOTA, Let’s not even talk about the Paradigm Sub1 or Sub2.. however potent these subwoofers (and they really are) they’re not audiophile enough, it is after all Paradigm… JL Audio managed to be seen as such but would have to bow for the Thor Hammer in most audiophile minds. Has anyone ever compared the two with same settings and same system in same room? No ..but the Thor Hammer is after from Wilson Audio so …
We are getting stale and frankly the SOTA is not advancing that much … Rather lateral moves. Different flavors except in speakers where Technology is affording us better drivers and better ways to integrate them (Read crossovers and cabinets). All that IMHO.
So no it is not a matter of prices only although it is there and present at all times. It is a matter of our collective psyche. The way we perceive progress and more importantly the way we measure progress. It has an impact on the way we build our systems and the way our industry moves forward.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Tim, these kind of posts from you and others actually have me now quite interested in hearing what the possibilities really are. Do you, or anyone else, know of such a system in the greater Boston area which I could perhaps hear by contacting the owner? I welcome any suggestions and am very curious about the level of sound that could be achieved for less than $10K. Thank you.

Are you a member of the Steve Hoffman Music Forums? You'll likely find a good number of members there.