The Upgrade Company
- Thread starter audioguy
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It is illegal to slander or libel someone....however one must prove malicious intent (see N. Y Times V Sullivan, 1964). Your second wish would essentially violate the 1st Amendment.
Post #32 looks to me to be nearly completely the posing of questions. Why would doubters and, yes, detractors, need to prove they are right? Isn't it customary for companies to offer proof of their products' performance? There might be/is science why better resistors, capacitors, transformers, etc, sound better, and of course it seems logical that more shielding should improve performance but I don't recall any science that shows there are audible difference differences between stock and modded components, especially of the magnitude claimed on sites like The Upgrade Company.
Spiels like those on The Upgrade Company's site "explaining" why "Hi-Fi salesmen, some magazine reviewers, used equipment sellers, and manufacturers" attempt to "diminish the incredible value The Upgrade Company provides to audiophiles the world over" seem to be expertly crafted to provide a rationale for those who have purchased and those about to purchase.
The Tinman was satisfied with a testimonial. Those calling BS on these upgrades are not.
Jeff
Jeff,
I do not wish to argue with you. But, the threads do not debunk claims, it may offer some question. The only way that any claims could possibly be debunked is through testing and as you know I hope that we will be able to conduct the ones planned.
Rich
Rich, they have at least served to show that TUC cannot or will not provide any objective evidence substantiating those claims - either in the thread or by accepting reputable third-party offers for test. Readers will, of course, draw their own conclusions.
Difficult to say how valuable the test you, Jeff and Craig are planning will prove to be, since test conditions, protocol etc. have yet to be clearly stated.
Ken,
I can not deny the difficulties involved and what the response will be. Regardless of the test, the planning, the results, I am sure that people will find fault with how the testing was conducted, the outcome of the results, and whether anyone will believe the results as reported. Unfortunately we can not satisfy everyone and their wants for the testing. Additionally, I do not know of any reputable third-party offers to conduct any tests. I know that in previous discussions when Nick, Dave (not Dave Schulte) and others participated we offered machines to be tested for measurement, again no takers.
Rich
Too bad JA couldn't step in here and take the measurements. He is the man for the job.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=709924&postcount=29Gene DellaSala (owner Audioholics) said:
in response to a described-as-threatening letter from TUC's attorney, to which Gene provided a rather sharp reply. I'm aware of one other reputable offer for third party test which TUC chose not to pursue, but I don't have permission to say anything about more about that.
Anybody ever try to sell a product that had the magic blue goop/tin foil modifications? How does that affect resale value? Are you just stuck with the piece when it's time to move on to something new and improved (like digital for example) or does it end up at the Goodwill store and written off as a donation?
Ken,
I am certainly not party to all of the discussions, legal letters, etc. that have gone on over this for some time. No question about it, it is unfortunate that people on both sides of this can not work things out to a more accommodating situation. But, as I have indicated, some of us that own the products have offered them for testing.
Another question that comes to mind on this and there are many that would argue this could not be, but what would happen if there was little or no difference in the measurements or even that the measurements of the upgraded product measured slightly worse but it was found that it sounded better? We know that many high end products may or could possibly not spec out as well but could quite well sound better than much less expensive more commercially successful products.
Mark,
I have sold products on Audiogon that were marked and sold as Upgrade Company upgraded machines including a pair of upgraded Aragon Palladium 1K monoblock amps. These did not using any of the blue AVR fluid on them. They sold for more than the stock unit but not nearly what should have been the sale price.
Rich
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Hi Rich,
I came back and deleted my post so that I would not offend you, but evidently was too late. As you have been even-tempered on AVS, you have handled my post equally ... serenely. I struggle with how to best express my skepticism on this without offending those who have made the decision to buy after market mods.
Jeff
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Rich,
It hasn't been decided yet how to proceed, but two things have been troubling me. First is your feeling that it could take hours to hear the differences between stock and modded, and even then the differences may not be obvious. That flies in the face of Dave's claims. (And I've still got my panties in a bunch over him claiming the Onkyo 5508 was superior to the Integra 80.2.) And the second one, and one that really has me scratching my head, is the special switch that Kal has offered let us use that would make A/B (A/B/X?) a breeze to do .. the switch that Dave Shulte "has concerns" about in that it could mask the differences.
I'm sorry to be airing this here, but I'd love for Mr. Shulte to step up here and address one or both of these. And he hasn't popped in on AVS.
Jeff
Why need he raise his concerns a priori? There are three possible outcomes: (1) The TUC unit is judged superior. (2) The TUC unit is judged inferior. (3) The two units are judged equal or indistinguishable. If the outcome is not (1) or (2), one could always argue that the switch did mask the differences.
Rich,
It hasn't been decided yet how to proceed, but two things have been troubling me. First is your feeling that it could take hours to hear the differences between stock and modded, and even then the differences may not be obvious. That flies in the face of Dave's claims. (And I've still got my panties in a bunch over him claiming the Onkyo 5508 was superior to the Integra 80.2.) And the second one, and one that really has me scratching my head, is the special switch that Kal has offered let us use that would make A/B (A/B/X?) a breeze to do .. the switch that Dave Shulte "has concerns" about in that it could mask the differences.
I'm sorry to be airing this here, but I'd love for Mr. Shulte to step up here and address one or both of these. And he hasn't popped in on AVS.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Again, I do not think that it would take hours to hear the differences between stock and upgraded units. However, it could take time to recognize what the differences are and somewhat consistently. Everyone is different and some people will recognize difference more readily and faster than others. Some people such as David may more readily notice differences than others so he may say that the differences are night and day. I take a more laid back view on this and may indicate that there is a noticeable difference, while others may say the differences could be more subtle or minor.
As to the question of the switching box offered by Kal, I (as well as David) are somewhat concerned that the differences between the units may be lost or masked more with the upgraded and expected to be more resolving capabilities of this unit over the stock unit. I would also be somewhat concerned about doing this comparing entirely different components one of which may be quite costly.
I can ask that David make some comment here or in the thread on AVS, but I hope that if he does that he will try to keep a level head and try to answer the question directly.
Rich
The thought through my mind was that he wanted to cause us do the test without it to accommodate Rich and therefore designing a lot of time into the A ........ B test so that quick switching was not possible.
Here is why "Our upgrades are the real deal. One can easily see and hear the improvements right off the bat ... "
It is a passive switch. I doubt that easily heard improvements are going to get lost in, what, slightly different contact resistance?
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Even if the switch were used, the listeners should be allowed to become acclimated to the sound of both units for some time so that they felt that they could recognize differences and to then run the tests switching from one unit to the other.
Rich
That's an absolutely fair request, and listening material should be chosen which best highlights the perceived differences.
This test is going to be blind and properly level-matched, yes?
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