The Upgrade Company
- Thread starter audioguy
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One very highly regarded audio manufacturer was often accused of using "cheap" parts and that was John Dunlavy. He and I had that conversation more than once and his position was consistent: it's not about price, it's about performance. He had tried more expensive drivers (particularly tweeters) and found their energy storage (hence ringing) was not as good as what he was using and had the data to prove it. Other driver attributes he measured also did not line up with his vision of desired performance. All that to reiterate what has been said that inexpensive does not equal poor performance.
Funny you should mention this... I've been recently engaged in the exact same discussions with Spectral, and it's astonishing the amount of detail they put into understanding everything about every single part in their designs and how it affects all relevant others. For example, the reason there is no output inductor in their amps - and consequently, why they rely on those custom-designed external MIT boxes - is because: a) they don't want the magnetic fields the inductor generates with so much output current being generated; b) they designed a better (they claim) stabilization circuit in those external boxes than the inductor itself; c) they can optimize it for the length of cable purchased.
I don't want to get into finer detail, but I've learned some fascinating things. I am hoping to meet up with them in person some day and engage in more similar tech talk, to the extent they can.
That's a great point, and one I made in my Dispelling Popular Audio Myths article way back in 1998:
Audio Myths article said:
--Ethan
Another excellent point. Often a 1-cent carbon film resistor or 20-cent op-amp are all that's needed. Replacing such parts with more expensive types offers no improvement, or even change, in the circuit's performance.
--Ethan
PS: Not worth a separate quote and post, but I loved Amir's example of a soft metal cotter pin for a propellor.
garylkoh
WBF Technical Expert (Speakers & Audio Equipment)
Wow! I went away for 10 days, and look what this forum has become. Great entertainment. Intrigue. Wire taps even!!
Thank you, William!!
As a designer and manufacturer, I don't dislike modders, but I wish that if they do want to modify my designs, please at least contact me. Sometimes, parts are picked for very good reasons - an example is the cotter pin analogy given by Amir.
There can definitely be ways to improve ANY design. However, frequently, designers are under time pressure (they have to release a design so that revenue can be generated to keep them in business), cannot change the designs once released (otherwise warranty and repair support is going to be a nightmare with every product produced being different), and are limited to the parts/suppliers they have on hand.
AVM does work - Winston uses it on his $150 CDs, and I believe that John Tucker uses it inside his Exemplar mods. But it can't be used willy-nilly like on those pictures that RUR posted. I have quite a lot of it (courtesy of Winston) when I was helping him develop a FIM power conditioner, but it was a nightmare trying to use it - too much and it dulls down the sound, and once you have put it on, it is very difficult to remove. So, to determine where and how much AVM to use, you have to make hundreds of prototypes, start applying AVM judiciously, and then when it has gone too far, take another prototype and apply the correct amount, and then find another place to apply more AVM.
I would NEVER put anything conductive (and there are 3 formulations of AVM, two of which are conductive!!) on the metal parts of electrolytic capacitors for obvious reasons.
If any one wants to have their CD/SACD/BD players modified, try John Tucker at Examplar Audio (disclaimer - John's local, and a friend although I don't own any of his products and he's a competitor). His work is good enough for Winston Ma, Bruce Brown and me.
Simply replacing a large "blue can" capacitor in the power supply with multiple small ones might work well although that is not a given. The electrical model for a capacitor is:
Paralleling a bunch of them will increase the capacitance, reduce resistance and inductance. If that's what's required in the power supply, OK. Bringing inductance down too low will also increase surge into the power supply, and then you could burn out diodes, relays, blow fuses, etc.
Thank you, William!!
As a designer and manufacturer, I don't dislike modders, but I wish that if they do want to modify my designs, please at least contact me. Sometimes, parts are picked for very good reasons - an example is the cotter pin analogy given by Amir.
There can definitely be ways to improve ANY design. However, frequently, designers are under time pressure (they have to release a design so that revenue can be generated to keep them in business), cannot change the designs once released (otherwise warranty and repair support is going to be a nightmare with every product produced being different), and are limited to the parts/suppliers they have on hand.
AVM does work - Winston uses it on his $150 CDs, and I believe that John Tucker uses it inside his Exemplar mods. But it can't be used willy-nilly like on those pictures that RUR posted. I have quite a lot of it (courtesy of Winston) when I was helping him develop a FIM power conditioner, but it was a nightmare trying to use it - too much and it dulls down the sound, and once you have put it on, it is very difficult to remove. So, to determine where and how much AVM to use, you have to make hundreds of prototypes, start applying AVM judiciously, and then when it has gone too far, take another prototype and apply the correct amount, and then find another place to apply more AVM.
I would NEVER put anything conductive (and there are 3 formulations of AVM, two of which are conductive!!) on the metal parts of electrolytic capacitors for obvious reasons.
If any one wants to have their CD/SACD/BD players modified, try John Tucker at Examplar Audio (disclaimer - John's local, and a friend although I don't own any of his products and he's a competitor). His work is good enough for Winston Ma, Bruce Brown and me.
Simply replacing a large "blue can" capacitor in the power supply with multiple small ones might work well although that is not a given. The electrical model for a capacitor is:
Paralleling a bunch of them will increase the capacitance, reduce resistance and inductance. If that's what's required in the power supply, OK. Bringing inductance down too low will also increase surge into the power supply, and then you could burn out diodes, relays, blow fuses, etc.
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I have been reading through these threads for some time now but never joined until I saw this thread. Very good reading and controversial which I like. This brings me to a question. Does AVM fluid work or not? After seing some of you slam a mod company for using it and then referring others to use a differnt mod company that uses it makes me very suspicious as to what is really happening here. Not that I would use either one but wouldn't you all now start bashing the other company for using blue paint on electrical components? If not, then I really think there is some kind of an agenda here and after looking very closely at the website for the company getting hammered here I would say more good than harm has come from that company. Obviously they have done a ton of work to get the plublicity they are getting. You don't touch just a few people to get this kind of recognition, being good or bad. There are a lot of things we buy that have gotten bad plublicity and we still buy them. Why is that? I would have to say that most of us here have skeletons in there closet so look in the mirror before passing judgement on others. Anyone who bashes over and over again on any one company really needs to look deeper into themselves and say what am I or what am I doing with my life. Especially the ones who have never had a bad experience with a companies product. This is why I bring up the point of an agenda in this post. The fact that the AVS forum I read was stopped and this one started makes me believe this is the same group or followers possibly. This forum should not be called "What's Best Forum" after reading through this garbage and instead should be called "What's Wrong Forum" because there is definetely something wrong here and it is not just about some mod company.
I would like to partially defend the few who have put up many posts regarding The Upgrade Company. There has been a lot of negativity, but that might fuel discussion. That is why I joined this group and wrote a defense of TUC, because the units I had modified outperformed their stock twins (I had two EMM pairs). If you spend a lot of money on stock equipment, you expect the best; however, high end companies often cut corners. E.G. EMM used a chep Philips transport on their CDSD ($10,000), CDSA ($12,000), and they finally went to a good transport, unfortunately, the new transport cannot be swapped in. You have in the digital world an evil combination for the consumer: almost instantaneous obsolescence, and no upgrade path (look at the Nikon D series digital SLRs, which cannot be traded in or upgraded when the new one comes out). This is why the mod companies exist: to milk performance improvements out of good but not SOTA equipment. A lot of what David Schulte says about less good parts is tru from my experience. Why would Dr. West of Sound Lab use Solen caps, when high end Clarity's (which are very expensive) work way, way better. Why are the OEM power cords on mucho expensive amps, like Bryston, complete crap, so you have to spend hundreds more to get the real perforamnce out of that unit. BY the way, when Bryston upgraded their SST line to SST2, there was no upgrade path for those of us who owned the earlier models (particularly the $8000+ ones). Somehow, I never hear high end manufacturers being trashed, and there is much good reason to complain: Audio Research preamps before the Ref series really stunk, yet they were praised in the press. I will say one thing good for ARC: when you send in a unit for evaluation, they replace old caps, align, etc. and do an excellent job. Everyone who enters the world of high end audio has made an extensive investment in the equipment, sometimes in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. Spending that kind of bread can make one thin skinned, and the thought that hallowed manufacturers like EMM or Bryston will cut corners for reasons that are not obvious.
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I started this thread but quickly found numerous complaints about this company, posted such and I was quickly called a liar by the owner of TUC. Then, a number of individuals asked him some technical questions and either got no answer after repeated requests or answers that indicated the owner of this company clearly lacked sufficient technical knowledge. Other claims made by TUC (e.g.the reason for the kind of server he was using) were quickly proven to be inaccurate.
Someone posted earlier that sometimes in order to determine What's Best, you must eliminate what's not.
NO "agendas" here other than by the owner of TUC (and maybe some of his shadow personalities). My initial request was an honest attempt to learn about this company. And I (and anyone else who has come upon this thread) sure have!!
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Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
you strike me as an intelligent individual
Please answer what you will do with that $25K Meitner player when something fails and you don't know whether it is related to an issue of modding (heaven forbid you open the case for fear you will be fired as a customer of TUC) or related to the Meitner unit. You and I both know that TUC is not going to fix anything related to the Meitner components not modded and you bet your last nickel that Ed Meitner won't be fixing your unit either especially if it is stil under warranty
Audioguy, most people who find something supposedly wrong with a company by just reading and then goes on the internet to say things like "I won't be doing business with this company" right away usually has an agenda against the company. More times than not anyway. Only others that are "on board" will follow. Again, sitting from the outside and looking at other forums really gives the impression of an agenda or attack. You could have easily sat back and waited for others to post before editing or not edited at all. From the outside this would have looked more real. As I see it from your first post it doesn't really look like you were that interested to begin with in doing any kind of business with anyone. I also sense that you already knew about that other forum before posting. You posted within minutes that you saw many, many,many,many,many etc... that have not been so pleased with this company. You read through all of what to find such custmers? AVS? That is a novel and in a matter of minutes had time to come back here and post under another guy who on AVS looks to be the s... stirrer and is riding the bus once again. Looks like someone just has too much time on there hands or they have been sent out to purposely try and dispose of a company. When I start seeing many,many,many compalints somewhere else other than here or AVS then I would be more concerned. Just for the hell of it now, I should send a modest player over to that company just to see what all the fuss is about. It can't be that bad if there are guys here who have had positive experiences plus there are others on AVS that are positive. More positive than negative real end users I suspect. If it were the other way around they would not be in business, especially today.
Just like anything in aduio you don't know what you are going to get until you get into your system. Read all the specs and measurements you want and it won't do you any good until it hits your speakers.
Just like anything in aduio you don't know what you are going to get until you get into your system. Read all the specs and measurements you want and it won't do you any good until it hits your speakers.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Are you by any chance related to the owner of TUC?
Someone I communicate with on another internet forum has the same SSP I do and informed me that he was going to contact TUC to investigate the upgrade. I then made my original post.
After doing so, I started doing a Google search on TUC and found the many negative comments and immediately edited my original post.
That you would suggest that my intentions were not honorable and/or that I had some "agenda" just blows me away. TUC calls me a liar and you accuse me of having some ulterior motive to bad mouth the company.
Mind numbing!!!
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
Chuck
take it for who he is and for someone to join our forum and with his first post to say what he did smacks with the likes of Mr Shulte
I don't know you, but these not-so-vaguely paranoid characterizations sound eerily like those made over and over by Mr. S, himself. Anyone with a negative experience or who finds fault with his testimonial-based (and only testimonial-based) business model is out to get him.
Even better, Mr. S could accept Gene DellaSalla's offer for evaluation/testing. Gene has the advantage of years of experience, appropriate, high-quality test gear, and an excellent reputation.
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let me chime in about AVM, an ingredient in TUC's upgrade/mod..
based on my personal experience, it works. I think it is a great product, I have it in my amps, cd player and speaker.
Gary is right, applying it can be a hit or miss experience, so user beware, that's why I use it with the guidance of the manufacturer.
The product is invented(?)/manufactured by a guy who is based here in Edmonton. This product is used by more people in the audio community than published, I had personally seen a $300,000+ company check by a known audio manufacturer in the hands of the AVM guy, and this company never ever mentioned anything about AVM. I had seen pictures of how extensively Winston Mah used this on his system and on some of his electronics (will put TUC to shame). Some of the guys who have publicly admitted using AVM are Winston Mah, Tash Goka (importer of Antique Sound Lab), Rick Schultz of Virtual Dynamics, Refrence 3A on Grand Veena and another small time cable manufacturer selling at Agon. The product is insanely expensive (to the tune of $2,000 per 2 liter container, I don't know why), but I had personally seen many pails of it being prepared for shipment.
I think the product is poorly marketed to the end user audiophile community (he should have not used the word "magic" because audiophiles don't believe in tooth fairies), but the company owner said it is not his target market. To my knowledge, the company is doing well, so, I am not going to question his marketing strategy.
I applied it on my MBL cd player after owning the player for one year, I could tell the improvements in the sound. I traded in an Innersound ESL 300 (owned for more than a year) to Ban Hoang (the guy behind AVM) for a pair of speakers, but has to buy it back after he treated it with AVM. I sold the ESL 300 to a guy in Toronto who owns the newer ESL 330, and a pair of Krells, the guy emailed later saying that he sold the ESL 330 and the more expensive Krell because the unit that came from me sounded way better. He eventually ordered more AVM for his other stuff.. I will stop here, risking to be labelled the official WBF AVM fanboy.
It boggles me how AVM gets easily dismissed almost anywhere it is mentioned in the online fora - to the point that I am almost embarrassed/afraid to admit using it - but one thing is clear to me - almost all of the people dismissing it has no personal experience using the product. The product can be had for less than $100 for a small amount, if I belong to the camp that dismiss the product from forum to forum, I would invest that amount to prove it to myself that the blue goo is indeed a snake oil... or magic
Who knows, maybe you can have your own upgrade company too...
good day people
based on my personal experience, it works. I think it is a great product, I have it in my amps, cd player and speaker.
Gary is right, applying it can be a hit or miss experience, so user beware, that's why I use it with the guidance of the manufacturer.
The product is invented(?)/manufactured by a guy who is based here in Edmonton. This product is used by more people in the audio community than published, I had personally seen a $300,000+ company check by a known audio manufacturer in the hands of the AVM guy, and this company never ever mentioned anything about AVM. I had seen pictures of how extensively Winston Mah used this on his system and on some of his electronics (will put TUC to shame). Some of the guys who have publicly admitted using AVM are Winston Mah, Tash Goka (importer of Antique Sound Lab), Rick Schultz of Virtual Dynamics, Refrence 3A on Grand Veena and another small time cable manufacturer selling at Agon. The product is insanely expensive (to the tune of $2,000 per 2 liter container, I don't know why), but I had personally seen many pails of it being prepared for shipment.
I think the product is poorly marketed to the end user audiophile community (he should have not used the word "magic" because audiophiles don't believe in tooth fairies), but the company owner said it is not his target market. To my knowledge, the company is doing well, so, I am not going to question his marketing strategy.
I applied it on my MBL cd player after owning the player for one year, I could tell the improvements in the sound. I traded in an Innersound ESL 300 (owned for more than a year) to Ban Hoang (the guy behind AVM) for a pair of speakers, but has to buy it back after he treated it with AVM. I sold the ESL 300 to a guy in Toronto who owns the newer ESL 330, and a pair of Krells, the guy emailed later saying that he sold the ESL 330 and the more expensive Krell because the unit that came from me sounded way better. He eventually ordered more AVM for his other stuff.. I will stop here, risking to be labelled the official WBF AVM fanboy.
It boggles me how AVM gets easily dismissed almost anywhere it is mentioned in the online fora - to the point that I am almost embarrassed/afraid to admit using it - but one thing is clear to me - almost all of the people dismissing it has no personal experience using the product. The product can be had for less than $100 for a small amount, if I belong to the camp that dismiss the product from forum to forum, I would invest that amount to prove it to myself that the blue goo is indeed a snake oil... or magic
Who knows, maybe you can have your own upgrade company too...
good day people
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I am just answering sttements about fixing the Meitner stuff. I have two rigs, both out of waranty. When one of the remotes failed, I sent the old unit to Meitner, who gave me a new one, free. The unmodded CDSD transport failed, I sent it to Meitner, and he replaced the unit for minimal cost. The second CDSD (modded) had a brief skipping problem that got fixed via suggestions from Dave Schulte. My experience with both EMM and TUC has been positive regarding repairs. In terms of Bryston, that is another story. They did replace the output choke to the new version for about $300, plus shipping, but they converted the power socket to 20 amp (an option) for free. I own a lot of equipment, and I would say that outfits like mcIntosh, ARC, EMM, (and even The Upgrade Company) stand behind their products. Of the Japanese manufacturers, I would say that Pioneer is the best; SONY and JVC the worst.
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