Theory That Musical Genre Preference Drives Loudspeaker Preference

[PeterA]

I am not intending to suggest that a speaker type cannot play a certain genre of music. I think every speaker can play every genre of music.

I am thinking about the very subtle nuances and differentiations we audiophile hobbyists make in this hobby when the rubber meets the road and we write a check for a loudspeaker. It is in that context and at that moment that I think the subtleties of our individual subjective preferences for certain kinds of music on certain types of loudspeakers comes into play.

Nor am I suggesting that a speaker type cannot play a certain genre of music. That is a distraction. No one claimed that. The claim is that some speakers play specific genres better and "many" people choose their speakers for that reason. I think you think planars play girl with guitar the best and so you chose your planars. You also think large speakers play large and occasionally like large scale music, so you chose specifically your large four tower Gryphons for those two reasons. This claim is about your subject choice and theorizing to justify it.

Bonzo and I think some horns, really good horns, can play many, even all types of music at the top level. You also say cones in box are a "general purpose loudspeaker". I think top cone in box can play all types of music at the top level but are no more general purpose -all arounders- than are horns or large panels. Of course, most people have real world constraints, so choose accordingly.

You wrote these comments in your excellent visit report to Utah to hear David Karmeli's system last January:

12) On jazz music and on classical symphony orchestra music David’s system affords me the greatest suspension of disbelief, the closest to what I hear at Walt Disney Concert Hall, that I have ever heard.

13) The system also is amazing on rock music. Drums and electric guitar are very engaging. It is not terribly difficult to imagine lead singers and guitarists and drummers stepping out from behind the speakers.

14) Transparency of vocals, as compared to transparency of vocals on Magnepans and Martin-Logans, remains an open question for me.

You actually heard a top horn based system play jazz, classical symphony orchestra, rock (drums and electric guitar) at the highest levels in your experience, the closest to live concert hall that you have ever heard. AND, for transparency of vocals compared to your reference ML panels, "it remains an open question" for you. That is a pretty definitive opinion.

I am not arguing that horn/set is the only way to achieve a convincing and realistic listening experience. I am arguing that when a system is well assembled and set up with appropriate speakers, that people with the same goals may choose horns, panels or cones for any number of reasons, not preference for a particular music genre. As I wrote before, if the system does dynamics, and true (not enhanced) resolution AND is very low in distortion, all of these speaker types should play a large selection of music convincingly and realistically, assuming the rest of the system, room, and set up are capable.

 

[Tangram]

I sound like a broken record (pun intended) but there simply can’t be a “best topology” conversation without discussing the listening room. Otherwise (and that’s fine, I guess) the question is purely academic. Heck, my ceiling is so low that I can’t even stand the biggest Magnepans upright in my room. My open baffles load my room no problem but I doubt that would be the case in a room twice the size.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Quite simply, all humans use the same hearing perceptual rules (which is also the reason that deciBels are something useful).

All humans might have the same hearing perceptual rules -- but they don't have the same perceptual preferences.

So musicians, regardless of genre, produce music that is spread across the audible spectrum in the same way.

Yes, regardless of the type of music, the music is expressed technically in frequency and in amplitude and in time.

Speakers simply have to reproduce that spectrum. You might argue rock is louder, but classical can be every bit as loud. So sound pressure isn't a thing. You might argue it has something to do with bass, but electronia, rock and classical all produce tones to 20Hz and below. So the ability to play bass isn't a thing either. I can go on; essentially that which makes a speaker good at rock makes it just as good at classical or any other genre.

I think we might be talking past each other. You seem to be talking from the point of view of the speaker -- and I agree that the speaker doesn't know or care what it is transducing.

I am talking about our subjective perceptions about how a loudspeaker presents that information. I think the way that horn loudspeakers couple to the air (as you corrected me) achieves for many jazz aficionados a particularly convincing reproduction of the sound of brass instruments -- more believable, for those particular jazz aficionados, than cones in boxes.

If there were a way to conduct a statistically valid test, this theory predicts that there will be a correlation between audiophiles whose primary musical genre interest is jazz music and ownership of horn loudspeakers.

 

[Atmasphere]

I read on the other thread that dances around this topic that horn and SET lovers tend to be into classical.

I regard SETs as impractical because their power is so limited and the more you try to make, the less bandwidth you get, not to mention that their real power, if you want to hear what they are about, is really limited to about 20-25% of their full power at clipping, meaning you really have to have speakers of +100dB efficiency to really get what they are about (another way of saying they are impractical).

I've been into horns for a very long time. I can't cite a particular genre of music that they are better at or worse. If properly designed and properly driven they can simply be some of the most neutral speakers around.

I own most of the RCA Living Stereo, Living Presence and a lot of the Decca and early EMI classical catalog and played in orchestras quite a bit (string bass; not that such gives me any particular qualifications...). If I really want to show off a system (for example, at audio shows) the recordings I use are classical, jazz, rock, folk and so on. All of them, if properly recorded, can really show off what a system can do (and can bring a system to its knees easily enough too).

Daes Ire from RCA Soria box of Verdi's Requiem; crank this one up- they really didn't use much compression so the LP format is a bit challenged on this one since it goes from solo oboe triple pianissimo to the bass drum at full whack of quadruple forte. Basically hit the bass drum as hard as possible...
John Renbourn group The Enchanted Garden; a Pentangle spinoff so I suppose this one is folk. Really well recorded and great for voices (voices being one of those things that all genres have in common ). And that penny whistle shouldn't be overbearing!
Black Sabbath Paranoid (on the German Vertigo white label); Its really hard to find an original American press of this LP that doesn't look like its been danced on; this recording has a very large amount of bass energy in the opening track; if you try to play it at a realistic-the-band-is-here-in-the-room level, like the Daes Ire above, if you don't have horns you'll need a vast amount of power and will likely suffer thermal compression to really hear what this LP really sounds like.
At shows for jazz I like to play the 45rpm re-issue of Soular Energy By the Ray Brown Trio. This one is popular with audiophiles...

These are really different recordings of the 4 top musical genres in the US with audiophiles. The better your system works, the better these 4 recordings will all sound. Musical taste has nothing to do with loudspeakers; the JBL L100 being best for rock is likely the classic example of this myth. It is one of the larger myths in audio; I've been hearing this sort of thing since the 1970s. But there simply is no known way for anyone to make a speaker or electronics that is capable of favoring a certain genre; if anyone could do that they could be a billionaire over night.

I think we might be talking past each other. You seem to be talking from the point of view of the speaker -- and I agree that the speaker doesn't know or care what it is transducing.

I am talking about our subjective perceptions about how a loudspeaker presents that information.

This bit literally goes both ways. How can you be attracted to a certain type of speaker based on your musical preference if speakers are incapable of favoring a certain type of music?

I acknowledge that human perceptual rules are different from taste (the latter having no accounting whatsoever) and that is why there are different kinds of music. Its best to understand that conflating taste and the mechanics of hearing will lead you down a blind alley- the two have nothing to do with each other.

 

[Ron Resnick]

How can you be attracted to a certain type of speaker based on your musical preference if speakers are incapable of favoring a certain type of music?

Because different speakers present the information they are transducing differently. And our perception of that presentation is subjective.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I've been into horns for a very long time.

What are the granular sonic or perception reasons you like horns?

 

[Atmasphere]

Because different speakers present the information they are transducing differently. And our perception of that presentation is subjective.

Again, the strength of a particular speaker or its weaknesses extend to all genres of music; put another way what makes a speaker good at rock makes it good at classical too.

What are the granular sonic or perception reasons you like horns?

No idea what is meant by 'granular' here.

I prefer the horns because they are very high resolution (which isn't always the case since the horn design, if flawed, can produce quite a lot of distortion), very fast and lack thermal compression (the first breakup is about 35KHz so they are nice and smooth at higher volume levels). I use field coils to speed the drivers up further so the resolution and speed is very much like ESLs and unsurprisingly, people have commented to me they sound like ESLs too. I considered using Sound Labs for a long time but simply could not make them work in my room; I needed to have the speaker closer to wall behind them and also needed to be able to use the controlled directivity to reduce/prevent early reflections from the side walls. They also image very well, so with that combination of attributes bring out good recordings very nicely.

It didn't hurt that the speakers are also easier to drive- 98dB and 16 Ohms, flat to 20Hz. This made them an ideal load for one of our smaller OTLs. Tubes and 16 Ohms work really well together; solid state amps tend to make half of their rated 8 Ohm power into 16 Ohms although all amps make less distortion into 16 Ohms. Tubes don't have to lose any power driving 16 Ohms and if you have an output transformer, you tend to get wider bandwidth as well. So 16 Ohms is really a win win and since I have higher efficiency the reduced power of my class D amps on the speakers isn't a problem since they make more power than I can use anyway.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I use field coils to speed the drivers up further

It didn't hurt that the speakers are also easier to drive- 98dB and 16 Ohms, flat to 20Hz.

I spent more time listening to your Classic Audio speakers at CAF than to any other system.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Again, the strength of a particular speaker or its weaknesses extend to all genres of music; put another way what makes a speaker good at rock makes it good at classical too.

Do you feel that all speakers present the same way to the listener the information they are transducing?

Do you think Magnepan speakers present the information they are transducing differently in any way from how your speakers present the information they are transducing?

 

[Ron Resnick]

I'm so

No idea what is meant by 'granular' here.

I meant the specific elements, the bits of reasons, you like your horns, as specifically and precisely as you are able to describe those elements and reasons.

 

[Atmasphere]

Do you feel that all speakers present the same way to the listener the information they are transducing?

Do you think Magnepan speakers present the information they are transducing differently in any way from how your speakers present the information they are transducing?

Maggies, set up properly, can be really convincing. You need to have them far enough from the wall behind them so the rear firing information can be used by the ear for echo-location; IOW to enhance the palpability of the sound stage. All speakers with rear firing information have this requirement. Maggies are also 4 Ohms which is always challenging insofar as speaker cables and amplifier distortion are concerned. So I find to set them up right, you have to back the rear of the amp to the rear of the speaker, allowing the speaker cable to be as short as possible- perhaps less than a foot. That really helps out the bass if you're using tubes!

So I've not heard them in my room.

But I have found that the better the speakers become, the more they sound like each other.

I meant the specific elements, the bits of reasons, you like your horns, as specifically and precisely as you are able to describe those elements and reasons.

This does not make sense to me. For me 'Reasons' aren't in 'bits'; they exist as whole entities. For example when a circuit has a rolloff, the 'reason' might have to do with timing constants. At any rate I think I described the 'reasons' I like my horn system above.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Maggies, set up properly, can be really convincing. You need to have them far enough from the wall behind them so the rear firing information can be used by the ear for echo-location; IOW to enhance the palpability of the sound stage. All speakers with rear firing information have this requirement. Maggies are also 4 Ohms which is always challenging insofar as speaker cables and amplifier distortion are concerned. So I find to set them up right, you have to back the rear of the amp to the rear of the speaker, allowing the speaker cable to be as short as possible- perhaps less than a foot. That really helps out the bass if you're using tubes!

So I've not heard them in my room.

But I have found that the better the speakers become, the more they sound like each other.

This does not make sense to me. For me 'Reasons' aren't in 'bits'; they exist as whole entities. For example when a circuit has a rolloff, the 'reason' might have to do with timing constants. At any rate I think I described the 'reasons' I like my horn system above.

Thank you, but I am afraid that I am not not seeing in here the answer to my yes/no question.

Do you think Magnepan speakers present the information they are transducing differently in any way from how your speakers present the information they are transducing?

 

[Atmasphere]

Thank you, but I am afraid that I am not not seeing in here the answer to my yes/no question.

Do you think Magnepan speakers present the information they are transducing differently in any way from how your speakers present the information they are transducing?

Such is communication

I described what is different about them. So the answer is 'yes'.

But if I had them I would play the same material on them.

Since I used tube amps for so many years, I never saw a 4 Ohm load as a good thing. My work with solid state (class D) reinforces that notion; IMO/IME if good sound quality is your goal, your amplifier dollar investment will be best served by a speaker of 8 Ohms or more, all other things being equal. IOW by simply increasing the impedance of a speaker the amplifier distortion goes down, making the presentation smoother, more detailed and more transparent.

I've often wished Magnaplanar made a 16 Ohm speaker...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Such is communication

So the answer is 'yes'.

So if people can have different subjective perceptions about the way a loudspeaker presents information, why can't people also have different subjective perceptions about which presentation reminds them more of the sound of live music or live singing?

 

[bonzo75]

So if people can have different subjective perceptions about the way a loudspeaker presents information, why can't people also have different subjective perceptions about which presentation reminds them more of the sound of live music or live singing?

Imo, if you present the same Maggie set up to more than one person, they will agree to what the Maggies are doing, but some might like it and some not. This is very different from saying different perceptions on how they present information.

 

[PeterA]

Again, the strength of a particular speaker or its weaknesses extend to all genres of music; put another way what makes a speaker good at rock makes it good at classical too.

This seems very clear to me and I appreciate you stating it in such simple terms.

I prefer the horns because they are very high resolution (which isn't always the case since the horn design, if flawed, can produce quite a lot of distortion), very fast and lack thermal compression (the first breakup is about 35KHz so they are nice and smooth at higher volume levels). I use field coils to speed the drivers up further so the resolution and speed is very much like ESLs and unsurprisingly, people have commented to me they sound like ESLs too. I considered using Sound Labs for a long time but simply could not make them work in my room; I needed to have the speaker closer to wall behind them and also needed to be able to use the controlled directivity to reduce/prevent early reflections from the side walls. They also image very well, so with that combination of attributes bring out good recordings very nicely.

Ralph, this is a great summary about horn speakers based on my very limited experience with them. My corner horns are 105 DB efficient and 16 ohm loads. They are thus extremely easy to drive for an SET amplifier. I completely agree that if they are well designed, they extremely resolving.

It didn't hurt that the speakers are also easier to drive- 98dB and 16 Ohms, flat to 20Hz. This made them an ideal load for one of our smaller OTLs. Tubes and 16 Ohms work really well together; solid state amps tend to make half of their rated 8 Ohm power into 16 Ohms although all amps make less distortion into 16 Ohms. Tubes don't have to lose any power driving 16 Ohms and if you have an output transformer, you tend to get wider bandwidth as well. So 16 Ohms is really a win win and since I have higher efficiency the reduced power of my class D amps on the speakers isn't a problem since they make more power than I can use anyway.

I understand that a lot of older speaker designs were 16 ohm. Could you explain briefly why impedances have been dropping. It seems to really limit amplifier choices.

 

[Kingrex]

I am still trying to get a hold of Bill with Phoenix Engineering to apologize and say don't let my ignorance influence your input on this forum. I have not found a good way to reach him yet. Just periphery.

 

[AVphile]

View attachment 120399

Steinway is not alone offering such a product. I use a QRS Pianomotion system with my Estonia grand piano. My source software are MIDI files. For solo piano works, I sincerely doubt even a $1 million audio system can reproduce, say, Beethoven's Moonlight Sonata as well as my Estonia/QRS piano can play it in my living room. However, to listen to everything else, I use my less-than-$1 million audio system.

 

[PeterA]

I am still trying to get a hold of Bill with Phoenix Engineering to apologize and say don't let my ignorance influence your input on this forum. I have not found a good way to reach him yet. Just periphery.

Some members were rather rude to Bill. It was unfortunate. Another valued member no longer here.

 

[Rexp]

Dear Ralph,

On the sonic cues theory thread you posted: "Its not theory that speakers do not favor genre- that's simple fact."

How it is a "fact" that speakers do not favor genre?

Yes, perfect, genre neutral, speakers don't exist.