Theory That Musical Genre Preference Drives Loudspeaker Preference

[Kingrex]

I believe people favor certain types of music played back on certain speakers. I would even go so far to say people, including myself, favor certain types of music with digital, and other music with vinyl.

 

[gadawg58]

I would say that the type of music that I listen to, room characteristics, and how I like to listen to music all inform my speaker choice but doesn’t necessarily drive it. I’ve owned many different types of speakers and they all had the capability to play the types of music I listen to which varies from Rock, Vocals, Jazz, and Classical. I think what drives my choice are the voicing and design choices that the designer makes that results in the particular house sound of the speaker along with the ability to adequately play that music with my choice of electronics and room. Magico and Wilson are primarily the same type of speaker (other than ported vs sealed) and they both sound different even in the same room with the same electronics and so for me the main driver is the characteristic house sound of a particular product.

George

 

[Robh3606]

I don't think there is a specific speaker type for different types of music. Granted they do sound different planers vs horns as or omni's vs mono-poles but each can be optimized to play all types within reason. I would not want to use a full ranger for HT as an example and listening to live rock recordings at close to original spl levels.

Anywhere you are going to play at high SPL either a horn hybrid or all horn I would think would be a logical choice for obvious reasons.

Rob

 

[Rexp]

I don't think there is a specific speaker type for different types of music. Granted they do sound different planers vs horns as or omni's vs mono-poles but each can be optimized to play all types within reason. I would not want to use a full ranger for HT as an example and listening to live rock recordings at close to original spl levels.

Anywhere you are going to play at high SPL either a horn hybrid or all horn I would think would be a logical choice for obvious reasons.

Rob

Can you name a speaker that plays EDM and Chamber Music equally well? And when I say equally well I mean they reproduce the music similar to what was produced in the mastering studio.

 

[Robh3606]

Can you name a speaker that plays EDM and Chamber Music equally well? And when I say equally well I mean they reproduce the music similar to what was produced in the mastering studio.

Well it has to be a full ranger with the bass requirements of EDM. None of us will know what the studio sounded like at the recording console.

Lets assume they are both well recorded. They could be monitored through many different styles and monitor types and distances from desk mount to in wall soffit or both.

I would think a pair of Revel Salon 2's would do a reasonably good job on both.

Rob

 

[Atmasphere]

So if people can have different subjective perceptions about the way a loudspeaker presents information, why can't people also have different subjective perceptions about which presentation reminds them more of the sound of live music or live singing?

I would put it this way from your post:
"If people can have different subjective perceptions about the way a loudspeaker presents information, then t people also have different subjective perceptions about which presentation reminds them more of the sound of live music or live singing. IOW the first part is saying the same as the second part.

Obviously this occurs, but has nothing to do with genre. Its why people prefer different speakers- in their room (the latter having been left out of the discussion so far but is clearly playing an enormous role).

Could you explain briefly why impedances have been dropping. It seems to really limit amplifier choices.

Most amps are solid state and make more power into lower impedances. Speaker designers often do not get the significance of what is happening when they use double woofers to increase the woofer sensitivity- they just think they are getting greater sound pressure since the sensitivity goes up 3dB when the impedance is halved. Its a lot cheaper to build a low efficiency speaker (higher efficiency speaker drivers often cost 10X more) so the numbers don't seem to look so bad if you get that 3dB boost. But they often do not realize (or don't care) that amps driving lower impedances are running hotter and making more (audible) distortion. In short, because $$$$$

Yes, perfect, genre neutral, speakers don't exist.

This statement, because of the words 'genre neutral", is false. If you challenge that, please present an example of a speaker that favors a certain genre. Just a single example will do.

I've been in this business since 1974 and never encountered one. Further, I'm very sure that if you could present the design criteria to do such a thing, speaker designers would be all over it in a heartbeat. From what I've seen of the designers I know, every single one of them pride themselves on making the most neutral speakers as they know how.

The classic example of a speaker favoring a certain genre is the JBL L100 being great for rock. I'm guessing that the reason people said that is because they mostly listened to rock on it and didn't have good classical recordings on hand. Record labels are quite different from loudspeakers and some labels most definitely are better at some genres than others!!

 

[Robh3606]

The classic example of a speaker favoring a certain genre is the JBL L100 being great for rock. I'm guessing that the reason people said that is because they mostly listened to rock on it and didn't have good classical recordings on hand. Record labels are quite different from loudspeakers and some labels most definitely are better at some genres than others!!

Hello

I generally agree with your assessment of them although just for rock I find not really true IME for the reasons you state. I owned a pair back in 1975 and still do. When the original Telarc Half speed masters came out, 1812 the first, they sounded quite good. My first home listening to the Telarc classical recordings was WOW with every one I brought home! They sounded just awesome! Those recordings made them come alive with the dynamics and clarity.

Rob

 

[Atmasphere]

Hello

I generally agree with your assessment of them although just for rock I find not really true IME for the reasons you state. I owned a pair back in 1975 and still do. When the original Telarc Half speed masters came out, 1812 the first, they sounded quite good. My first home listening to the Telarc classical recordings was WOW with every one I brought home! They sounded just awesome! Those recordings made them come alive with the dynamics and clarity.

Rob

Yes, they were not a bad speaker but there are much better ones now

 

[Rexp]

Well it has to be a full ranger with the bass requirements of EDM. None of us will know what the studio sounded like at the recording console.

Lets assume they are both well recorded. They could be monitored through many different styles and monitor types and distances from desk mount to in wall soffit or both.

I would think a pair of Revel Salon 2's would do a reasonably good job on both.

Rob

My ex business partner owned a mastering studio so I kinda do know what EDM is supposed to sound like. Trust me your Revel Salon 2 wouldn't come close to the gut wrenching bass produced by big Genelec studio monitors.

 

[Rexp]

I would put it this way from your post:
"If people can have different subjective perceptions about the way a loudspeaker presents information, then t people also have different subjective perceptions about which presentation reminds them more of the sound of live music or live singing. IOW the first part is saying the same as the second part.

Obviously this occurs, but has nothing to do with genre. Its why people prefer different speakers- in their room (the latter having been left out of the discussion so far but is clearly playing an enormous role).


Most amps are solid state and make more power into lower impedances. Speaker designers often do not get the significance of what is happening when they use double woofers to increase the woofer sensitivity- they just think they are getting greater sound pressure since the sensitivity goes up 3dB when the impedance is halved. Its a lot cheaper to build a low efficiency speaker (higher efficiency speaker drivers often cost 10X more) so the numbers don't seem to look so bad if you get that 3dB boost. But they often do not realize (or don't care) that amps driving lower impedances are running hotter and making more (audible) distortion. In short, because $$$$$

This statement, because of the words 'genre neutral", is false. If you challenge that, please present an example of a speaker that favors a certain genre. Just a single example will do.

I've been in this business since 1974 and never encountered one. Further, I'm very sure that if you could present the design criteria to do such a thing, speaker designers would be all over it in a heartbeat. From what I've seen of the designers I know, every single one of them pride themselves on making the most neutral speakers as they know how.

The classic example of a speaker favoring a certain genre is the JBL L100 being great for rock. I'm guessing that the reason people said that is because they mostly listened to rock on it and didn't have good classical recordings on hand. Record labels are quite different from loudspeakers and some labels most definitely are better at some genres than others!!

Quad 57, better with music without low, high impact bass?

 

[Robh3606]

My ex business partner owned a mastering studio so I kinda do know what EDM is supposed to sound like. Trust me your Revel Salon 2 wouldn't come close to the gut wrenching bass produced by big Genelec studio monitors.

Sorry but that's just SPL. Any full-range system can play it accurately. I already commented that if you want high SPL go horn hybrid or horn. You don't have to play it at club levels to enjoy it.

What's in the clubs or at live shows can put the monitors to shame as far as shear SPL capability. You don't have to be in the control room to get it.

Rob

 

[Rexp]

Sorry but that's just SPL. Any full-range system can play it accurately. I already commented that if you want high SPL go horn hybrid or horn. You don't have to play it at club levels to enjoy it.

What's in the clubs or at live shows can put the monitors to shame as far as shear SPL capability. You don't have to be in the control room to get it.

Rob

When you say play it accurately, what do you mean?

As I have experienced, in this case its the Genelec sound that the artist heard his music on and used it to the decide the final master. If later, the Genelecs had been swapped for Salon 2's do you think it would sound the same/similar? Would the artist want to change the final master?

 

[Argonaut]

This statement, because of the words 'genre neutral", is false. If you challenge that, please present an example of a speaker that favors a certain genre. Just a single example will do.

I've been in this business since 1974 and never encountered one.

Quad 57’s transducing the Human Voice Viz Girl and Guitar / Crooner , comes pretty close .

 

[morricab]

Quad 57’s transducing the Human Voice Viz Girl and Guitar / Crooner , comes pretty close .

STAX ELS-F81s were even more extreme in this regard...best resolution combined with utterly limited bass power (depth ok but only quiet) and macro dynamic restrictions meant no loud rock and no big classical works at anything close to real world levels.

 

[Hear Here]

It really doesn't work that way. Horns move air the same way as any cone speaker (they use diaphragms after all) except they have better coupling. Musical instruments, like a violin, rely on resonance in their body that is responsible to a great degree for the particular timbre they make. Resonance in speakers is usually not good although its something you deal with, in particular in the bass region if a box is involved.

Horns work well on two accounts: if they are properly designed they can be very fast and low distortion on account of the driver really not having to work that hard with little excursion and they are directional, allowing you to minimize side wall reflections (read: 'smoother') in a home environment.

Ralph - I basically agree with you and would suggest that perhaps, rather than the genre of preferred music that should be a main pointer to the TYPE of speaker, the features presented by the room should be the more important indicator of speaker type.

Odd that Ron should highlight jazz (often featuring brass) and chamber (often featuring strings) should both be looking towards horns, or that female vocal would be best elsewhere for the "greatest suspension of disbelief on solo vocals".

I've been using horns for many years with excursions into other types, mainly electrostatics. I'd suggest that chamber may be better presented by els, but for jazz and female vocal (the latter for the ultimate feeling that the soloist is sitting on your equipment rack between your speakers and singing just for you) horns take some beating, although perhaps els equally exciting with female voice. However, it was my room's features that let down els in that they require a rear wall to harvest some of the 50% energy that is projected backwards. My speaker positioning presents a curved floor-to-ceiling glazed "wall" with 12 ft behind one speaker and 15 ft behind the other. Not kind to els, but horns are very unfussy about rear and side walls, so fare well in my room. In theory I should perhaps be using omnis in my room, but that's another matter. Peter

 

[ssfas]

Well, that certainly covers a broad swath. What then exactly, is left for cone and planar speaker to do best? Country music, Icelandic folk songs, klezmer music, Tibetan Bells and some sound tracks from dinosaur movies?

I think I peaked at around 200 live shows per year, possibly more, but it's been 100-200+ for just over 40 years. It may have been a bit less when the kids were young, but we also go to the cinema and theatre, though a lot less of those now.

Our main interest is contemporary dance, then ballet, opera, then classical (mostly baroque and chamber) and jazz. Contemporary dance exposes us to a vast range of music from around the world. Our next performance in a couple of days is Cloud Gate Dance Theatre (https://www.cloudgate.org.tw/en/cg), their last two programmes featured traditional music from Taiwan, then Shostakovich chamber music and their next show is a collaboration with the Icelandic rock band Sigur Ros. In the last 3 weeks I've seen two full scale Handel pieces (an oratorio and an opera) and Bach cantatas sung by the amazing Counter Tenor, Hugh Cutting. For 20 years our favourite dance company (Akram Khan) mostly used classical Indian music, my current favourite (Sharon Eyal Dance) is mostly techno. I do occasionally listen to a bit of Country and Western.

How is any speaker system meant to cope with that? It can't. I avoid disappointment by not listening through speakers to the music I enjoy live and would disappoint at home. Rather than spend $100,000 on better speakers, I'd rather spend the money on tickets (and we have to economise on tickets as well).

I did have a pair of Quad ESL82. My wife banned them. I sold them to an audiophile classical musician (and audio reviewer) because his son was training as a conductor and he considered them the best speakers for understanding recorded classical music. There is a lot of truth in that. I only know one other audiophile and we have completely opposite tastes, he has B&W, which I dislike quite intensely.

For me, Harbeth and Wilson cover enough territory not to leave me disappointed.

I also have a collection of Klezmer music (Giora Feidman in particular). The wonderful Swedish clarinetist Martin Frost also has a soft spot for Klezmer, we heard him play some at the Wigmore Hall as well on his recordings.

I don't know about dinosaur movies, but you mischaracterise Tibetan music as being all bells and no whistles. I've heard plenty of Tibetan drums, clarinets, a flute made from a human leg bone. We were fortunate to come across some folk celebrating the Dalai Lama's birthday in early July, they had a small band, we went to a much bigger production a few weeks earlier with all sorts of sounds that you wouldn't want to listen to at home. You'd probably need a subwoofer for whatever those things are.

 

[mtemur]

eventually, ultimately, for many audiophiles, musical genre preference drives loudspeaker preference.

Well, maybe it’s true but I think choice of primary source has a more important role on determining speaker preference.

Vinyl as a source usually pairs with 12” or bigger bass drivers. On the other hand when Cd used as source, thin floor standers with two 8” or smaller bass drivers are more ubiquitous.

IMHO if vinyl is the source, impactful speakers with basic crossover, high sensitivity and big woofer pairs well. Cd or digital pairs well with smooth speakers with complex crossover and small woofer.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Well, maybe it’s true but I think choice of primary source has a more important role on determining speaker preference.

Vinyl as a source usually pairs with 12” or bigger bass drivers. On the other hand when Cd used as source, thin floor standers with two 8” or smaller bass drivers are more ubiquitous.

IMHO if vinyl is the source, impactful speakers with basic crossover, high sensitivity and big woofer pairs well. Cd or digital pairs well with smooth speakers with complex crossover and small woofer.

It never would have occurred to me to think that source (vinyl versus digital) is a driver of loudspeaker preference. I cannot say that I prefer your theory over my theory.

 

[Robh3606]

Well, maybe it’s true but I think choice of primary source has a more important role on determining speaker preference.

Vinyl as a source usually pairs with 12” or bigger bass drivers. On the other hand when Cd used as source, thin floor standers with two 8” or smaller bass drivers are more ubiquitous.

IMHO if vinyl is the source, impactful speakers with basic crossover, high sensitivity and big woofer pairs well. Cd or digital pairs well with smooth speakers with complex crossover and small woofer.

Hello mtemur

Interesting??? Never thought about it from that perspective. I use digital/cd almost exclusively and most of my systems use 12's and up. The only exception is the living room where a lager system just won't physically fit. My preference is to larger woofers even though I am primarily using CD's.

Have to wonder why??? Could it just be that was common in the 70's for larger woofers and the towers came later?? Or with the birth of HT with 5.1 as the norm needing smaller footprint systems??? So we see this as an age filter thing if we came up with vinyl or just mirroring a classic vinyl set-up???

I don't see a correlation to source vs. speaker type for stereo. Over time I have used both to good effect.

Rob

 

[thedudeabides]

When you say play it accurately, what do you mean?

As I have experienced, in this case its the Genelec sound that the artist heard his music on and used it to the decide the final master. If later, the Genelecs had been swapped for Salon 2's do you think it would sound the same/similar? Would the artist want to change the final master?

So why do they master on a speaker system that is rarely used in a home environment? Seems like a false positive.