Tips for ABX Tests

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Once again, we see that there is no understanding of what the proof of a universal negative requires in a scientific setting, and especially when probability is involved.

I notice your multiple attempts at intimidation, and your relentless Gish Gallop here, but you still haven't shown any understanding of what "proof" means in a scientific setting, let alone how one would have to prove a universal negative.

Note, UNIVERSAL negative. Some negatives can be proven, but that's not germane to any subjective test.

The problem is simple. Let us take a test (sighted, dbt, whatever) with the following results:

10 of 10 answers were right. The choice is binary, A or B. Now, what is the probability of that happening by pure chance? What's the chance it wasn't? If it wasn't, what's the subject's actual chance of a right answer? Is it 1? No, it's not. You don't know exactly, and you can't know exactly. Ever.

Ok, now we have an answer of 6 of 10, correct. What is the probability of that arising from pure chance? Yes, pretty big, but does that prove anything absolutely? No, it does not.
What is the probability of that arising from a very faint detection mechanism that just barely works (i.e. a threshold effect)? It's possible, but how do you separate that from pure random results? How many tests must you run?

Now, let us say that the chance of a right answer for a very hard threshold effect is .51, that's not random, that does mean that one can detect something, sometimes, i.e. that the negative is not PROVEN.

Now, how does one run a test detect that, and to rule out a false negative with 100.00% assurance?

Ok, now we go to 50.001% right answers. How does one prove that's not happening?

Look up what type 1 and type 2 error are before you disgrace yourself any further. Your entire set of protestations is completely ignoring the real, actual problem at hand. Again, stick to the law, and let the scientists stick to science, ok?
 
in case you don't want to read all that "
"But there is one big, fat problem with all this. Among professional logicians, guess how many think that you can’t prove a negative? That’s right: zero. Yes, Virginia, you can prove a negative, and it’s easy, too."

Prove no god or gods exists. Go ahead. Do it. You just said you can.

Alternative, prove that the premise "no god exists" is wrong.

Y'all have a nice day, now.


Oh, and when you get around to it, we can discuss the difference between testable and untestable premises, but that's for another day, after you prove one or the other of the above. This I gotta see.

Oh, and the term we are discussing is "universal negative". You can stop trying to shift the goalposts. You are now attempting to baffle the reader with misleading arguments based on your false summary of my position.
 
.I accept the article. You have said nothing to rebut it. Do you have proof where other have proven him wrong?
 
(...) I will agree, good tests are anything but "free", they are tricky to execute, hard to run, and require great care. They are not to be causally attempted except, maybe, by the extremely experienced, and even then, with great caution. (...)

Nice to know we fully agree on this one.
 
i did the whole binomial choice thing in high school. With the advent of computers they actually perform tests simutating a million coin flips. A lot of it was posted on this site.
 
.I accept the article. You have said nothing to rebut it. Do you proof where other have proven him wrong?

That poorly cut and pasted article does not address the issue of the universal negative. Please stop attempting to change the subject. While you're at it, I have given you two examples, each of which in and of itself, shows the impossibility of proving (meaning absolutely proving, as in mathematics, not "proving" as in how well you can confuse a jury or a judge) a universal negative.

You have shifted the goalposts and this has been pointed to you. You may no longer argue ignorance on this issue.

Give it up, Councellor, stick to law, and let the scientists stick to science.
 
i did the whole binomial choice thing in high school. With the advent of computers they actually perform tests simutating a million coin flips. A lot of it was posted on this site.

So?

You are going to ask a subject to do an infinite number of trials, each of which can take as long as the subject wishes?


Sorry, even your computer can't do it fast enough. Infinite is infinite.
 
There is no point in arguing with a lawyer. It is their job to warp peoples' perception to make [not necessarily prove] their point.

Never take an ABX Test? What are you afraid of?
 
Once again, we see that there is no understanding of what the proof of a universal negative requires in a scientific setting, and especially when probability is involved.

I notice your multiple attempts at intimidation, and your relentless Gish Gallop here, but you still haven't shown any understanding of what "proof" means in a scientific setting, let alone how one would have to prove a universal negative.

Note, UNIVERSAL negative. Some negatives can be proven, but that's not germane to any subjective test.

The problem is simple. Let us take a test (sighted, dbt, whatever) with the following results:

10 of 10 answers were right. The choice is binary, A or B. Now, what is the probability of that happening by pure chance? What's the chance it wasn't? If it wasn't, what's the subject's actual chance of a right answer? Is it 1? No, it's not. You don't know exactly, and you can't know exactly. Ever.

Ok, now we have an answer of 6 of 10, correct. What is the probability of that arising from pure chance? Yes, pretty big, but does that prove anything absolutely? No, it does not.
What is the probability of that arising from a very faint detection mechanism that just barely works (i.e. a threshold effect)? It's possible, but how do you separate that from pure random results? How many tests must you run?

Now, let us say that the chance of a right answer for a very hard threshold effect is .51, that's not random, that does mean that one can detect something, sometimes, i.e. that the negative is not PROVEN.

Now, how does one run a test detect that, and to rule out a false negative with 100.00% assurance?

Ok, now we go to 50.001% right answers. How does one prove that's not happening?

Look up what type 1 and type 2 error are before you disgrace yourself any further. Your entire set of protestations is completely ignoring the real, actual problem at hand. Again, stick to the law, and let the scientists stick to science, ok?


Let me keep this basic. Disagreeing with you and lacking understanding are entirely two different things.
Maybe you were not here. I did the whole binomial choice, confidence level, null hypothesis thing before and posted it on this site. In your own words do your own homework.

Saying something can be done and me personally being able to do it are two different things. A DNA test can be done but I cant do one. But I sure as hell can challenge the results.


You sound like a tough guy to me . Your presence on the internt would support that conclusion. It would appear to me that the only thing that would intimidate you is knowing you are unable to defnd your position. That's not my fault.
 
There is no point in arguing with a lawyer. It is their job to warp peoples' perception to make [not necessarily prove] their point.

Never take an ABX Test? What are you afraid of?

+1 .. Indeed .. "Make"..

It is clear that most people have no idea what an ABEX is.
 
I post this because I got sucked into an ABX challenge on this site. Like others I caved in to the constant drumbeat of you are scared to take a ABX because you know you will fail.
let's put aside for a moment why it is thye were so sure I would fail. At this point no issue had been selected.
Not only didi I agree I was going to spend my own money to fly to the challengers home.
When I asked for the hypothesis we would evaluaute and attempting to negotiate the conditions of the test he backed out.

When I say call their bluff, I do not mean accept the challenge. If you have already accepted and gan't get out then call their bluff.

Do it your own home. OK.
Chose your own music . Ok
Take as long as ou like.OK.
Pick the associsted components.OK
Take every advantage they offer.
This is good advice for life never walk inot any test unprepared.
 
I post this because I got sucked into an ABX challenge on this site. Like others I caved in to the constant drumbeat of you are scared to take a ABX because you know you will fail.
let's put aside for a moment why it is thye were so sure I would fail. At this point no issue had been selected.
Not only didi I agree I was going to spend my own money to fly to the challengers home.
When I asked for the hypothesis we would evaluaute and attempting to negotiate the conditions of the test he backed out.

When I say call their bluff, I do not mean accept the challenge. If you have already accepted and gan't get out then call their bluff.

Do it your own home. OK.
Chose your own music . Ok
Take as long as ou like.OK.
Pick the associsted components.OK
Take every advantage they offer.
This is good advice for life never walk inot any test unprepared.

ok ... thanks
 
Greg,
Can I change the order of your words?
Be my guest.
Also: Never walk into any unprepared test!

Some are so sure of themselves they think the test conditions don't matter.
 
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AS we can see form above it is really important to avoid personal challenges. On any given issue the question is not can you do it, but can it be done it all. So swallow pride and ignore it.
Tips are calling you golddn ears for example. Take my advice they will not end well for you.Even if you pass you can be dismissed as a lucky coin.
 
It would appear to me that the only thing that would intimidate you is knowing you are unable to defnd your position. That's not my fault.

This insinuation that I have not defended my position is yet another deliberate insult to my professional standing.

It is time for you to abandon the silly idea that one can prove the UNIVERSAL NEGATIVE.

Stick to law, and let us scientists do science from now on. Stick to what you know, ok?
 
AS we can see form above it is really important to avoid personal challenges. On any given issue the question is not can you do it, but can it be done it all. So swallow pride and ignore it.
Tips are calling you golddn ears for example. Take my advice they will not end well for you.Even if you pass you can be dismissed as a lucky coin.

ABX tests (or any kind of scientific test) should not be presented as personal challenges, either. They should be presented with as much support as possible given to those taking the test, including (but not limited to) training, feedback, comfort, appropriate equipment, audio material, and so on.
 
"Speech and Hearing in Communication" By Harvey Fletcher, the ASA Edition, ISBN 1-56396-393-0 (Yes, that book resides next to my computer.)
http://my.safaribooksonline.com/boo...ten-determination-of-loudness/zwickers_method (n.b. most of his work is in German and no longer available)
"Psychoacoustics" by S. S. Stevens

There are many articles on various DBT and signal-detection methods (which include a blinded unknown by a computer) for testing hearing in the Journal of the Acoustical Society of America.
I doubt I'll find anything by Fechner, that goes back a ways.

http://srmo.sagepub.com/view/the-sage-encyclopedia-of-social-science-research-methods/n257.xml is a pointer to some stuff behind a paywall (grr).

You can readily establish the existence of various kinds of DBT's for auditory stimuli in many highest-quality refereed journals.

...

I almost miss that post. ...Good reading stuff, thx a bunch!
 
There may be reasons to not want to take someone else's blind test. But there is no reason you should not take these tests on your own and test your hypothesis of how good your hearing assessment really is. No one will be looking at the results but you. Without this, you don't know if you are wrong 1% of time or 99%!
 
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