Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[adyc]

I do not think there are many audiophiles are as skillful as sbnx to setup this speaker. I certainly do not have such skills. I also do not think most dealers have a clue to setup this speaker. For such expensive speaker, Advantgarde should send someone from HO to setup this speaker. My room is certainly big enough to accommodate Trio G3. But if it is only me to setup this speaker, there is no way I will buy this speaker.

 

[bonzo75]

The bass quality and texture of the horns is superior to any of my former speakers. Everything is much faster with less overhang.

This will be true even when compared to most other cones.

 

[DSkip]

I do not think there are many audiophiles are as skillful as sbnx to setup this speaker. I certainly do not have such skills. I also do not think most dealers have a clue to setup this speaker. For such expensive speaker, Advantgarde should send someone from HO to setup this speaker. My room is certainly big enough to accommodate Trio G3. But if it is only me to setup this speaker, there is no way I will buy this speaker.

I guarantee you your first statement is correct. He has skills that are rare even within the industry.

Regarding AG sending someone - I'm not sure that is the best solution unless they have a dedicated and well-trained specialist. I don't know them, but I do know most designers don't understand setup to the degree to maximize their designs. It just isn't in the portfolio of design. A designer needs to make an incredible speaker. A setup specialist needs to make it SOUND like an incredible speaker. Dealers should have guys like this but many don't. A dealer providing professional setup makes much more sense as they'll have greater opportunity to learn and hone those skills.

 

[Kozak170]

Avantgarde claims that with iTron technology even an MP3 music file can sound more impressive than the best high-res playback on a conventional system(voltage drive) and this is not a small claim, but when we realize the basic differences between the current and the voltage drive, it cannot be far from the mind. In voltage drive mode, there are many elements that are placed in the signal path which affect the signal from the amp to the voice coil, such as all kinds of passive crossover filters, and then the voice coil resistance and also the process of converting voltage to current in the voice coil, Which is the worst possible place for this operation and in general that variable resistance leads to rise-time delays, jitters, less immediacy and presence, dynamic limitations, etc.
So, these serious flaws of voltage drive can play a big role in the loss of signal purity from the amp to the driver, but when we go with the current drive amplification which traces the input signal far more accurantely and those iTron amps which are directly coupled to the drivers without any added filters or resistances, naturally, the least interference and the highest purity and linearity of the signal is obtained.

So it can be assumed that the pleasure Todd gets from Spotify with iTron is much more than the pleasure that we get from Tidal or Qoboz with our voltage drive systems, which is really enviable

 

[Germanboxers]

Jordan, do you have a delivery date on your pair yet?

Not yet. They were supposed to ship from Germany last Friday after confirmation of funds wired, but this happened later in the day so might not have confirmed funds until Monday.

 

[sbnx]

Avantgarde claims that with iTron technology even an MP3 music file can sound more impressive than the best high-res playback on a conventional system(voltage drive) and this is not a small claim, but when we realize the basic differences between the current and the voltage drive, it cannot be far from the mind. In voltage drive mode, there are many elements that are placed in the signal path which affect the signal from the amp to the voice coil, such as all kinds of passive crossover filters, and then the voice coil resistance and also the process of converting voltage to current in the voice coil, Which is the worst possible place for this operation and in general that variable resistance leads to rise-time delays, jitters, less immediacy and presence, dynamic limitations, etc.
So, these serious flaws of voltage drive can play a big role in the loss of signal purity from the amp to the driver, but when we go with the current drive amplification which traces the input signal far more accurantely and those iTron amps which are directly coupled to the drivers without any added filters or resistances, naturally, the least interference and the highest purity and linearity of the signal is obtained.

So it can be assumed that the pleasure Todd gets from Spotify with iTron is much more than the pleasure that we get from Tidal or Qoboz with our voltage drive systems, which is really enviable

Interesting. I didn't know they had that claim regarding MP3 files. I only have Qobuz so I can't testify as to how bad or good spotify sounds on the Trios. i don't even use Qobuz all that much. I mainly use it to surf new music to see if I like it or not. if I like it I buy the CD and rip it to the solid state drive in my K50.

 

[Germanboxers]

I do not think there are many audiophiles are as skillful as sbnx to setup this speaker. I certainly do not have such skills. I also do not think most dealers have a clue to setup this speaker. For such expensive speaker, Advantgarde should send someone from HO to setup this speaker. My room is certainly big enough to accommodate Trio G3. But if it is only me to setup this speaker, there is no way I will buy this speaker.

You do realize that what Todd is doing is not *required* to get great sound from Avantgarde? Would you make the same requirement of other top-end speaker makers before buying their product? Incidentally, Todd mentioned earlier in the thread that AG offered to help set them up and he refused since he intended to put far more effort into setup than a dealer or manufacturer could ever offer.

Every speaker placed in a room requires this level of attention to detail if you are to get the absolute most from the speaker. Avantgarde's are not different in this regard. Most of us stop way short and settle on "good enough". Todd has decided to put this level of effort into setup because presumably he believes he can extract additional performance over a more pedestrian setup. I'm guessing he put similar effort into setting up his previous speakers.

This system has enormous potential beyond more typical audiophile efforts to place the speakers because the system is: 1. horn-loaded so more directional. 2. includes subwoofers that can be moved independent of the mains. 2. horn loaded to ~50Hz which should excite the room differently and more favorably (just my guess) than conventional speakers. 3. have a really fantastic DSP capability and 500w/ch amplifier for each 12" driver. So...lots of levers to get fantastic sound and Todd is leaving no stone unturned.

 

[DSkip]

What Todd is doing is *required* to get what a speaker is capable of, regardless of price. Setup to that degree is that important.

At a certain price point, a professional setup should be included in the sale IMO. At the price of these speakers, I do think its a requirement but YMMV.

 

[Germanboxers]

What Todd is doing is *required* to get what a speaker is capable of, regardless of price. Setup to that degree is that important.

At a certain price point, a professional setup should be included in the sale IMO. At the price of these speakers, I do think its a requirement but YMMV.

Sure...I agree. If one doesn't think they are capable of doing it themselves then they should hire someone to do it. I'd rather hire someone directly based on their bona fides in speaker setup rather than have the dealer/mfg provide someone that may or may not have any real skill. Either way, we'll pay for it so why not have the choice?

 

[Kozak170]

Interesting. I didn't know they had that claim regarding MP3 files. I only have Qobuz so I can't testify as to how bad or good spotify sounds on the Trios. i don't even use Qobuz all that much. I mainly use it to surf new music to see if I like it or not. if I like it I buy the CD and rip it to the solid state drive in my K50.

I read this in the Trio G3 brochure, the part related to iTron "eliminating losses in the amplifier/speaker chain means that even an MP3 music file can sound more impressive than the best high-res playback on a
conventional system!"

Spotify was just an example because its quality is equivalent to mp3(320kb) You can compare this by playing a familar music from K50 storage in mp3 format which you used to listen alot with G1 Spirit in hi-res format.
And for Qoboz itself, it has the ability to downgrade the quality to mp3.

 

[sbnx]

You do realize that what Todd is doing is not *required* to get great sound from Avantgarde? Would you make the same requirement of other top-end speaker makers before buying their product? Incidentally, Todd mentioned earlier in the thread that AG offered to help set them up and he refused since he intended to put far more effort into setup than a dealer or manufacturer could ever offer.

Every speaker placed in a room requires this level of attention to detail if you are to get the absolute most from the speaker. Avantgarde's are not different in this regard. Most of us stop way short and settle on "good enough". Todd has decided to put this level of effort into setup because presumably he believes he can extract additional performance over a more pedestrian setup. I'm guessing he put similar effort into setting up his previous speakers.

This system has enormous potential beyond more typical audiophile efforts to place the speakers because the system is: 1. horn-loaded so more directional. 2. includes subwoofers that can be moved independent of the mains. 2. horn loaded to ~50Hz which should excite the room differently and more favorably (just my guess) than conventional speakers. 3. have a really fantastic DSP capability and 500w/ch amplifier for each 12" driver. So...lots of levers to get fantastic sound and Todd is leaving no stone unturned.

Thank you for the clarification. It is certainly not required. As I mentioned in an earlier post, when I just had the speakers very roughly positioned they sounded really good. I am just trying to wring every ounce of performance I can out of them. Yes, I worked this hard (or really even harder) on my previous speakers. I included a little graph below that I think illustrates the idea that more one obsesses on positional accuracy the more sound quality can be gained from any speaker. I believe that not all speakers can achieve the same level of sound quality. (If that were the case I would have never changed speakers.) But all climb the curve. At the pointy end we are talking about "movements" that are so small that you can not even remotely see the speaker move. Things like adjusting rake by 0.002 degrees or azimuth by such a small amount that it is in the 4th decimal place. But these are very clearly audible when we get to that point.

I am posting the videos and discussion on setup for those that might be interested in the findings on how to get more out of the Trios. Things like the necessity of raking them forward to get into the tweeter window. AG says this in the manual but perhaps a demonstration works a little better. Or that if someone has the room then playing with the position of the spacehorn can yield substantial benefits in bass smoothness and impact.

I would encourage anyone to reach out to either Stirling Trayle or Jim Smith to help with dialing in the Trios. The cost of this is pretty minimal compared to the cost of just the speakers let alone the cost of the whole system. When I am done and get them as good as I can then I will call Striling to help push them beyond where I can get them. I am willing to pay for that last 10% (Likely more) of performance between my setup and his. I don't think there is any harm in asking a highly qualified person to come help. Both Stirling and Jim have setup 1000's of systems and know what to do to get anyone's system to sound the best it can. (One side note: even though dealers have setup up a lot of systems they really have not developed the skill to truely dial in a speaker. It is just not what they do. They are mostly about the gear and helping you match the right gear to the right speaker etc.)

 

[microstrip]

As far as I have read, the first step of Stirling Trayle setup and optimization process is disassembling the complete system and reassembling it according to his procedure and method. Besides the fun and audiophile curiosity, what is the point of spending a lot effort and time assembling and tuning a system to the micron that will be created quite different by an expert, optimized and frozen since that day?

 

[DSkip]

There are some dealers with the skill set but they are rare. Others hire guys like those listed above to do a final set. It should be common practice imo.

The interesting thing is that even at the highest levels, there are variances in the set. Importance seems to be placed in different areas depending on the clients preferences or the ears of the setup guy. They are normally subtle but there.

Todd, if possible, I’d love to hear the system pre and post setup.

 

[caesar]

My demo at Angie's place was similar to the setup at AXPONA and Munich where they have a pair of dual spacehorns between the main Trios and they have a pair of single spacehorns stacked on top of the dual's. Jerome did have three different settings programmed into the spacehorns so I could listen to just the duals, just the singles or both. As part of the settings the bass output was level matched so the loudness of the bass was the same no matter which demo I listened to.

I don't know what it was about that setup but just the dual spacehorns sounded the best. Adding in the set of singles muddied stuff up. I believe this was likely just a setup issue and could be fixed given enough time. One note for anyone interested and doing a demo like this where the singles are stacked on the duals. The horns on the bottom (in this case the duals) have the floor for bass reinforcement and are going to sound different/better than the single spacehorn that is suspended up in the air. It would be an easy trick to fall for. If you are serious and don't have a lot of space and you want to make sure the single spacehorn will work for you make the dealer setup the system with just the single on the floor.

Thank you for all the thoughtful replies.

So how much better is the sound you are getting than what you experienced at Axpona , Munich, and at the distributor? Day and night difference?

as far as spacehorns go, I wonder how much better dual ones would be over singles…after all , it’s so room dependent….

furthermore, I wonder if it’s a smart business decision on the part of Avantgarde to cross over at 100, and force people into space horns, instead of giving the flexibility for the customers to get into the game without the space horn and instead allow other brands of subwoofers

 

[caesar]

Not yet. They were supposed to ship from Germany last Friday after confirmation of funds wired, but this happened later in the day so might not have confirmed funds until Monday.

Sweet! very exciting! Does Avantgarde airship?

And who will be doing your setup?

 

[nirodha]

Thank you for all the thoughtful replies.

So how much better is the sound you are getting than what you experienced at Axpona , Munich, and at the distributor? Day and night difference?

as far as spacehorns go, I wonder how much better dual ones would be over singles…after all , it’s so room dependent….

furthermore, I wonder if it’s a smart business decision on the part of Avantgarde to cross over at 100, and force people into space horns, instead of giving the flexibility for the customers to get into the game without the space horn and instead allow other brands of subwoofers

You still can use other brands but… what is the point if you want the ultimate in sound quality? It is the manufacturer’s opinion after years of development that this is the way to go. You are not forced into anything because there is always the GT iTron.

 

[caesar]

Does anyone understand what it is about Avantgarde designs that they have the most lifelike attack of pretty much of anything out there? Even with the previous models. Is it all about sensitivity?

 

[caesar]

What Todd is doing is *required* to get what a speaker is capable of, regardless of price. Setup to that degree is that important.

At a certain price point, a professional setup should be included in the sale IMO. At the price of these speakers, I do think its a requirement but YMMV.

MBL sends out their distributor to set up all of their Extremes.

 

[caesar]

You still can use other brands but… what is the point if you want the ultimate in sound quality? It is the manufacturer’s opinion after years of development that this is the way to go. You are not forced into anything because there is always the GT iTron.

I could be wrong, but you must get their subs…yet fir guys who don’t have all the cash at once, buying without the space horns and then saving up for the upgrade would be a an excellent option … and avoiding a potential lost sale for Avantgarde

 

[caesar]

I guarantee you your first statement is correct. He has skills that are rare even within the industry.

Regarding AG sending someone - I'm not sure that is the best solution unless they have a dedicated and well-trained specialist. I don't know them, but I do know most designers don't understand setup to the degree to maximize their designs. It just isn't in the portfolio of design. A designer needs to make an incredible speaker. A setup specialist needs to make it SOUND like an incredible speaker. Dealers should have guys like this but many don't. A dealer providing professional setup makes much more sense as they'll have greater opportunity to learn and hone those skills.

Hi Sbnx, have you considered consulting the guys in Germany regarding your setup procedure? I’m sure they will have ideas and opinions