Todd's AG Trio G3 System -- it's about time

[Germanboxers]

i-Tron (a brand name not a type of amp) current based amps must be matched to particular drivers. in the case of the G3 Trio's each of the 3 i-Tron amps output 3 watts. so it's a very narrowly focused approach....requiring active technology. less efficient drivers won't match well with current based amps.

Mostly correct, Mike. However, according to the brochure, iTron is a 3x100w amp. I know Armin mentioned “just 3 watts” in a video sometime last year. I would guess the brochure was more likely to be accurate as it’s possible Armin was trying to convey that it only takes 3 watts to fill up a room??

 

[LL21]

That is saying something...109db efficiency, and the speaker designer designs 3 x 100 watt Single ended circuit amps.

 

[adyc]

I sent an email to AG asking how to measure the offset. This is the answer I got from Michaela Becker:

Suitable tools for such measuring may be a tape rule (with a second person at hand) or a laser distance meter, pointing to spots close to the horns rims (where the horn has a rather “flat” surface facing the listener) and close to the horns’ perpendicular bisector line, also see picture attached with 2 suggested points.

 

[sbnx]

I sent an email to AG asking how to measure the offset. This is the answer I got from Michaela Becker:

Suitable tools for such measuring may be a tape rule (with a second person at hand) or a laser distance meter, pointing to spots close to the horns rims (where the horn has a rather “flat” surface facing the listener) and close to the horns’ perpendicular bisector line, also see picture attached with 2 suggested points.

View attachment 110987

OK. That is interesting. Definitely not what the manual says. From my previous data there is about a 6mm difference in distance between mearusing to the top of the tweeter horn and the bottom. Leaving the rest of the setup where it is, I will adjust to both positions and assess what it does to the sound.

 

[sbnx]

Mostly correct, Mike. However, according to the brochure, iTron is a 3x100w amp. I know Armin mentioned “just 3 watts” in a video sometime last year. I would guess the brochure was more likely to be accurate as it’s possible Armin was trying to convey that it only takes 3 watts to fill up a room??
View attachment 110955

I am not sure this is correct. What Avantgarde says is that it is a 3 channel, 3 watt per channel class A current amplifier with zero negative feedback. Of course 3 watts into what load is not specified. The industry standard is 8 ohm which the Trio is definitely not an 8 ohm load.

When I leave the iTron on for several hours the "fins" on the outside of the amplifer are barely warm but definelty not hot. I can take a temperature reading and post it here but I would guess 100F. The reason I mention the temperature is that if it were 100W classA then it would be smoking hot and the amplifier doesn't have nearly enough heat sink for that.

 

[adyc]

OK. That is interesting. Definitely not what the manual says. From my previous data there is about a 6mm difference in distance between mearusing to the top of the tweeter horn and the bottom. Leaving the rest of the setup where it is, I will adjust to both positions and assess what it does to the sound.

Maybe can call them up directly to clarify?

 

[bonzo75]

I made a quick video last night comparing the sound with Qkore and Gain adjust to the sound without these. The video is a little rough as I was dog tired last night. If you want to skip all of my crappy commentary then you can toggle between 1:44 and 4:08 and that will get you a direct comparison of the two. As the video mentions the music choice is Beethoven's 1st Piano Concerto. I thought the iphone recording would pick up a larger difference between the two but even when I listen on headphones (Cheap ones) it is hard to hear much difference and certainly not the magnitude of what is in the room. Maybe you guys can hear more in the recording. Either way the video does give you a good sense of what piano is sounding like on the Trios == Very good.

Enjoy.

This system is really sounding good. The anal might say the piano is not analog like because there isn't a TT, but the strike, flow, wholness of the note, contrasts are excellent.

Instead of taking from the sweetspot, you could step back and take both speakers in together, and have the spacehorns on, that might tell us readers more. Thanks.

 

[sbnx]

I'm not the enthusiast for horn speakers that many are on this forum. But this was one of the most enjoyable and informative threads on the forum I've read in ages. Kudos to the OP. And even more so to the contributors. Rare to see a thread that does not degenerate to some of the usual squabbles after 14 pages, which contributed immensely to the reading enjoyment. I admit I'm now curious to learn where I can hear a well set-up pair of G3s and the iTron amps? BTW, I looked for specs on the iTron amps on the web site and found nothing. Can they drive less efficient speakers and if so, how "less" efficient? I look forward to reading and learning more.

Hello Marty,

When I first heard about the new Trios in late 2021 and that they were using a current amplifier I wanted to know more about the technical details of that. So I bought the book pictured below and read the relevant sections. As I recall chapter 5 contains most of what I really wanted to know. I can see if I can find a few paragraphs that summarize it best and paste here.

This book is very technical. Good for insomnia.

 

[sbnx]

This system is really sounding good. The anal might say the piano is not analog like because there isn't a TT, but the strike, flow, wholness of the note, contrasts are excellent.

Instead of taking from the sweetspot, you could step back and take both speakers in together, and have the spacehorns on, that might tell us readers more. Thanks.

Ked, Thanks for the comments on the video. It seems you are the WBF resident expert on disecting youtube videos. Could you detect any differences between the first recording and the second recording? (WIth and without grounding/gain)

I am not sure what would happen if I moved back to record (I guess I could try that). The primary reason is that the right speaker is turned away from the main listening position (20 degrees or so) while I focus on gettin the left speaker dialed in.

 

[bonzo75]

First has a harder top and strike, second one seems softer on the top end of the piano note. In the first the piano is more distinct from the Peter’ orchestra than the first. However I am not preferring one to other just noting the difference

 

[sbnx]

I fully agree with you - I did the same in my room and a few friends room. But the best listening place depends on the speaker and some speakers sound best when the listening position is not in the zone with flattish bass.

And we must be realistic - most audiophiles have strong limitations when choosing the listening space.

Micro,

I agree. A lot of people have limitations as to where they can sit or where their speakers can go either due to the size of the room or domestic harmony considerations. Everyone works with what they have. Optimization can occur even within a fairly tight window. 2-3 inches is a long way.

Having a larger room with the freedom to do anything can also pose its own challenges. Suddently there seems to be a infinite sea of possible positions and that can cause confusion. It certainly did for me when I first moved into my new dedicated room. The intent of my posts is to help those interested to sort through the infinite possibilites and end up with a relatively small area to obtain the "best" sound.

 

[DSkip]

Micro,

I agree. A lot of people have limitations as to where they can sit or where their speakers can go either due to the size of the room or domestic harmony considerations. Everyone works with what they have. Optimization can occur even within a fairly tight window. 2-3 inches is a long way.

Having a larger room with the freedom to do anything can also pose its own challenges. Suddently there seems to be a infinite sea of possible positions and that can cause confusion. It certainly did for me when I first moved into my new dedicated room. The intent of my posts is to help those interested to sort through the infinite possibilites and end up with a relatively small area to obtain the "best" sound.

A short story about a client of mine: as he visited more and more often, he began to ask questions about the setup process. I would answer him willingly and answered many questions. At a certain point, he asked a question and I realized I was on the verge of giving him too much information. I don't mean in terms of giving away trade secrets - it is about confusing the process. The process is involved and takes time, especially when you are just learning it. He would have just enough knowledge to be dangerous to himself and possibly destroy the good things he had going on in his system.

There is a learning curve for this process and in order to understand it, being on hand for a handful of setups with a professional is vital to being able to replicate it. I had the fortune of being able to do just this and it might be the most valuable learning experience I've had to date.

Even within room constraints that can hinder performance, there is still much you can do for a system simply by playing with the height, rake, and azimuth of a speaker. There is also the ability to make minor adjustments horizontally that can make major differences. Sometimes we are talking about half a mm or less that can reach that aspect of sound you are looking for at the moment.

 

[sbnx]

I listened to the AG s at audio life in buren on both the I tron and tubes for about an hour
The i tron had a direct sound , tubes softened the whole presentation up a bit .
What suprised me was the bass those units can put out , he demonstrated this with some organ music

Soon we will have an owner who can talk to both the iTron and a super rev'd up 300B amp on the Trios. I believe Jordan will get his speakers very soon. Hopefully, he will categorize the differences he hears between iTron and a first class tube amp.

 

[sbnx]

Hi Marty,

.....the commitment, attention to detail, and exacting methods, etc. And inspired me to investigate a bit further than I otherwise would have.

My gut says horns are in some respects even more exacting of setup and more sensitive to the system arrangements, room, etc. Not sure why, but its an impression from listening to them and also to comments from those who have significant experience about the nature of their finetuning.

Which probably makes it very important to get a setup that is really, really, really set up well.

Hello Lloyd, from reading many of your posts over the years you definitely seem to enjoy the exploration process and are an experimenter in finding things that will improve your enjoyment of music. In the above post are refering to investigating horns further or the impact of setup adjustments? All speakers benefit from intense attention to detail. I know you are keenly aware of this as I have seem some of the "tweaks" you have done to your XLF's and the X1's before that. If you are curious then you can start with getting a high precision digital level and get the XLF's as level as you can as a starting point. It is still absolutely shoking to me how much 0.1 or even 0.01 degrees makes to the sound.

 

[Ovenmitt]

Proof that Trio owners are just all round lovely people

I’d say this about most any Avantgarde owner’s

 

[bonzo75]

I’d say this about most any Avantgarde owner’s

It's true with Marslo too. Maybe that's why I will never have any AG. Mike and LL21 might end up getting one

 

[sbnx]

It's true with Marslo too. Maybe that's why I will never have any AG. Mike and LL21 might end up getting one

Why is that? Because you are not a nice person and they are?

 

[Germanboxers]

I am not sure this is correct. What Avantgarde says is that it is a 3 channel, 3 watt per channel class A current amplifier with zero negative feedback. Of course 3 watts into what load is not specified. The industry standard is 8 ohm which the Trio is definitely not an 8 ohm load.

When I leave the iTron on for several hours the "fins" on the outside of the amplifer are barely warm but definelty not hot. I can take a temperature reading and post it here but I would guess 100F. The reason I mention the temperature is that if it were 100W classA then it would be smoking hot and the amplifier doesn't have nearly enough heat sink for that.

Todd, where did you read the "3 channel, 3 watt per channel, class A current amplifier with zero negative feedback"? I have only heard Armin say 3 watts per channel in a 3rd party video. I have not read that they are biased Class A or that they are 3 watts per channel.

That said, I don't know that it really matters whether it is 3w/ch or 100w/ch. Prior to acquiring the Thomas Mayer 300B amps, I used his 45 based amps which are about 2w/ch at best. My Duo Mezzo XD's are 107db sensitive (versus 109db for the Trios) and I never had the sense that I didn't have enough power. With horn speakers like this, the quality of the power supply is paramount once above some minimum wattage, maybe 1-2w or so.

This is the text from the brochure. Perhaps a current amplifier does not benefit from Class A biasing? I honestly have no idea, just trying to make sense of what is out there.

 

[Argonaut]

It's true with Marslo too. Maybe that's why I will never have any AG. Mike and LL21 might end up getting one

Even Spirit … God Help Us

 

[Kozak170]

Hello Marty,

When I first heard about the new Trios in late 2021 and that they were using a current amplifier I wanted to know more about the technical details of that. So I bought the book pictured below and read the relevant sections. As I recall chapter 5 contains most of what I really wanted to know. I can see if I can find a few paragraphs that summarize it best and paste here.

This book is very technical. Good for insomnia.

View attachment 111001

I have read parts of this book, it was really interesting, The revolution of current drive can potentially transform even the famous Ohm's Law memes..