It's amazing how contentious the debate is between entreq and tripoint. It's like democrat vs republican or cables do or do not matter, ect. I think they both can do the same thing at clearly different price points.
Tripoint troy signature grounding device
- Thread starter Audiocrack
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If nothing else it's certainly good for encouraging debate but not always the most illuminating!
Christian, I'm often criticised for my negative comments on high end pricing, and Troy esp, but I do believe that price points in uber high end audio exist that people can afford, and are in context of the total cost of a system. Value is in the wallet of the beholder. Or what's left after paying the bill! Tripoint Emperor makes more sense when you consider I believe it can support 40+ ground cables, and in Asia the hardcore guys are grounding chassis/signal on each component multiple times (e.g. 10 components x 4 = 40 leads). This approach would necessitate in Entreq's case 5 Silver Tellus' and assocd Atlantis boxes to get anywhere near. And the price hence would escalate.
In my own case, my entry level S. Tellus/single Apollo to preamp, was 20% the entry ticket of Troy SE, and my final destination of S. Tellus/8 Apollos/Cleanus + Apollo/Westwick 8kVA balanced power transformer/Burmester 948 conditioner/dedicated radial main w/Oyaide cable, strangely enough coincides w/the price of Troy SE. But I believe I have added value over Troy w/my extra boxes.
I'm cool w/Troy pricing, it certainly fits in w/the Asian high end market, and there is no batting of eyelids over there. But I concur w/you that Entreq pricing is eminently palatable, and we're happy not looking beyond.
In my own case, my entry level S. Tellus/single Apollo to preamp, was 20% the entry ticket of Troy SE, and my final destination of S. Tellus/8 Apollos/Cleanus + Apollo/Westwick 8kVA balanced power transformer/Burmester 948 conditioner/dedicated radial main w/Oyaide cable, strangely enough coincides w/the price of Troy SE. But I believe I have added value over Troy w/my extra boxes.
I'm cool w/Troy pricing, it certainly fits in w/the Asian high end market, and there is no batting of eyelids over there. But I concur w/you that Entreq pricing is eminently palatable, and we're happy not looking beyond.
Maybe I missed something but which person did an a/b comparison and actually preferred Entreq to Tripoint purely on musical grounds? And just let me be as clear as you: I am getting tired of folks who criticize products they know very little about.
Its no mystery. Since you are part of this contentious dialectic, can you explain why you felt inspired to mock Miguel's product on his personal system thread? I have own neither product and have no skin in the game other than being an audio buddy of Miguel.
Spirit, while I appreciate your enthusiasm for Entreq, your continued attacks on Tripoint are rather odd particularly when they show up on Miguel's personal Audiogon thread and multiple other forums. The contentious dialectic that Rokitman referenced is essentially zero when you are subtracted from the equation. Did you take offense in your dealings with him? That is my analysis behind your continued jihad against Tripoint....
Geardaddy, jihad is a little inappropriate as a word, esp. in context of what's going down in the world w/ IS etc. Maybe you'd like to pick a different word? But I take your point. For the record, I do object (moderately, we're all moderate in this hobby I hope, despite how the tenor of posts can be misinterpreted v.often) to Miguel having a system thread devoted to his company on Audiogon. Others manufacturers like Ralph of Atmasphere contribute on forums, so Miguel is by no means alone in having a freedom of manufacturer speech online, but the big difference is that Ralph doesn't emphasise a biased corporate line on his own products, belittling those who don't choose his approach, and is open minded and generous enough to give his tech advice/comments on non-Atmasphere matters. He could easily say Atmasphere is king, all else paupers blah blah, but doesn't ever. Many times when I have asked for explanations of Troy right at the start of my comms w/Miguel, all enquiries were never addressed, just answered w/his oft repeated comments that only Troy-ed systems provide music, all else mere noise. No answers ever to my specific queries. When I finally made email contact, the claims of superiority of Troy products made by him was frankly more staggering than any other claim I've heard in my time in audio. Now, you have only my word for it, but I am a straightforward, honest guy, it's up to you if you can believe I was made a claim that I might find impossible to fathom. And yes, these experiences in life (like my own business competitors saying they are the ONLY people for my clients, all else i.e. me, being mere pretenders) make me opinionated in reverse.
But in terms of balance, if you read the post you've highlighted, and recent posts here, and my truce w/him on A'gon, I can't really be accused of being anti-Troy anymore. In the post you highlight, I actually defend the cost of Emperor. And that's all I have to say, me and Miguel are cool now.
But in terms of balance, if you read the post you've highlighted, and recent posts here, and my truce w/him on A'gon, I can't really be accused of being anti-Troy anymore. In the post you highlight, I actually defend the cost of Emperor. And that's all I have to say, me and Miguel are cool now.
Spirit, I do see this was an element of truce on his thread, and I respect that. Miguel does use his system thread as a platform of sorts (not that he really needs to) and that is a double edged sword. No way around that. If you pay for advertising on Audiogon, they will censor things for you and scrub negative dialogue. I have innocently been on the receiving end of that and have been censored on multiple occasions while making what I thought were intellectual points that never snubbed a manufacturer. I understand the power of the internet to damage a business, and respect that but it does tend to infringe on freedom of speech from time to time.
As for personality clash, I understand that too. Miguel is a little bombastic and forceful. You have obviously not rubbed elbows a lot with many latinos in the UK particularly Cubans like Miguel. I have a Cuban pastor friend who is the same way. They tend towards a black/white mindset like an old testament prophet. I come from a Norwegian/Scottish (Shetland Islands) people who are even more inverted than many Brits, so I get it. Carry on....
Very true. What you see even more of is manufacturers who recruit end users to hawk their stuff on system threads and put up reviews (after passing on an industry accommodation). This is a little disingenuous, but again, its business. Many hi end manufacturers are too poor to use the normal channels of advertising. Hi end audio is a hand-to-mouth business for many manufacturers despite SOTA products particularly in our current global economy and in the context of the used audio market (Audiogon in particular) destroying their margins....
Geardaddy, I have to smile when you mentioned Old testament prophets in a thread on the high end, since I'm fighting a bit of an evangelical arch objectivist v subjective argument on an associated Synergistic Research thread here on WBF. I am a bit green about this aspect of the internet, and tbh the default setting should be to remain skeptical esp in the face of consistent uber positive reviews of anything.
Despite my friction w/Miguel, I do respect his pioneering work at the forefront of grounding, but am happy to go w/Entreq for the added modularity and essentially easier financial burden. I don't believe there are any accommodation reviewers on Entreq or Tripoint posting here, just converts to the cause, and enthusiasm for grounding needs to be transmitted to bring new people on board.
Despite my friction w/Miguel, I do respect his pioneering work at the forefront of grounding, but am happy to go w/Entreq for the added modularity and essentially easier financial burden. I don't believe there are any accommodation reviewers on Entreq or Tripoint posting here, just converts to the cause, and enthusiasm for grounding needs to be transmitted to bring new people on board.
I don't know and I suspect that with the exception of very small number of people in the Far East nobody has had a proper opportunity to do that. Now that Entreq is available in the USA that may change.
I did hear a Troy in someone else's system and I did not hear any clearly identifiable superior sound quality compared to my system and Entreq and the two systems though different were not miles apart in terms of component price and quality.
The Troy was also significantly more expensive over here than the Entreq system.
I am very happy with Entreq's improvements to the sound quality of my system and Rockitman's recent description of the benefits to his system mirror my own experiences. I am happy to share my experiences with Entreq in the hope that others will find it helpful. Responses from members in the USA who have tried Entreq suggest that those experiences and those of other WBF Entreq users have been.
IMHO the Entreq grounding delivers significant improvements in sound quality in a very cost effective way, is user friendly and upgradeable in stages.
If others prefer Tripoint then that is not a problem for me but that is no reason for me to desist from sharing my experiences and reasons for choosing Entreq in a fair and objective way.
Barry2013, how much less is the Entreq there than the Signature. I say Signature as there was an earlier Troy that was a good deal less expensive and not a good. I suspect that the $14k version over here might be cheaper than the Silver Tellius with four ground cable, and indeed this is the case as the Enteq would cost $15,390 here.
So if you are on the side of the pond where the grounding unit is made, you get it cheaper.
I have never heard any Entreq under very good circumstances, but your statement about hearing the Troy Signature and noting no superior sound quality is so at odds with mine that I really don't know what to expect of the Entreq.
I also don't exactly know what signal grounding versus chassis grounding means. But if I'm right few systems here at least have the circuit board not grounded to the chassis, that here at least I don't think that is any different. I do have two grounds on my Koda K 10 and do find the using the ground to the circuit board sounds better than that to the chassis.
In short my personal opinion is that I would try an Entreq were one offered but right now my concern is the raves about the Emperor at the AE Show and whether or not a want to even hear it.
So if you are on the side of the pond where the grounding unit is made, you get it cheaper.
I have never heard any Entreq under very good circumstances, but your statement about hearing the Troy Signature and noting no superior sound quality is so at odds with mine that I really don't know what to expect of the Entreq.
I also don't exactly know what signal grounding versus chassis grounding means. But if I'm right few systems here at least have the circuit board not grounded to the chassis, that here at least I don't think that is any different. I do have two grounds on my Koda K 10 and do find the using the ground to the circuit board sounds better than that to the chassis.
In short my personal opinion is that I would try an Entreq were one offered but right now my concern is the raves about the Emperor at the AE Show and whether or not a want to even hear it.
TBG, I was at a fellow WBF guy's house w/Barry, where a standard Troy (w/PC installed into the mains) was in the system and then switched out. I believe this is the experience he talked about. Tbh, the system was pretty unfamiliar to both of us, and as such it's prob a bit misleading to make too many conclusions re Troy v Entreq. We can confidently say, however, that the soundstage shrunk a lot when Troy was disconnected. And this has been our experience re disconnecting our respective Entreq boxes.
My general conclusion is that you can't go wrong w/either, and maybe different aspects of the listening experience are enhanced by the different approaches.
Re prices, there is no doubt that Entreq is more competitive in the UK/Europe, less so in the US (my likely final configuration of S. Tellus/9 Apollos/Cleanus at half the price of Troy Signature/9 Signature leads, prices even up when you throw my balanced transformer and conditioner into the mix).
This is not an anti-Troy price comment, just a setting out of where the parameters on cost are.
My general conclusion is that you can't go wrong w/either, and maybe different aspects of the listening experience are enhanced by the different approaches.
Re prices, there is no doubt that Entreq is more competitive in the UK/Europe, less so in the US (my likely final configuration of S. Tellus/9 Apollos/Cleanus at half the price of Troy Signature/9 Signature leads, prices even up when you throw my balanced transformer and conditioner into the mix).
This is not an anti-Troy price comment, just a setting out of where the parameters on cost are.
Spirit, is the "standard" Troy the Troy Signature without the Troy power cord upgrade? I think the price difference goes the other way if you are over here.
I have heard that the Eartha Atlantis grounding cables are better than the Tripoint Silvers. Have you any experience with them?
I have heard that the Eartha Atlantis grounding cables are better than the Tripoint Silvers. Have you any experience with them?
Thanks TBG.
As Spirit has indicated the price difference over here is significant and he's right that we heard the Troy together.
Chassis grounding has not really been a big issue over here and Lloyd is the only one I know of who has gone down that road albeit in tandem with Entreq signal grounding.
I have no reason to disbelieve the reports about the Emperor's performance but it is expensive and before spending that sort of money I would want to consider whether that was the best use of that money, If, for example, I had a high end digital set up I'd want to consider trading that in and get a DCS Vivaldi set up and sticking with an existing Troy rather than upgrading to the Emperor. I am sure there are lots of other examples but I do think it is important to look at the system as a whole and consider how you can get the biggest bang for your bucks.
The Entreq works very well for me and is user friendly. Rockitman is obviously very pleased with his. If you have a Stillpoints dealer anywhere near you then I guess the best thing would be to try and arrange a home demo and hear how it works in your system.
I've used Silver, Apollo and Atlantis and in general the consensus over here is that the Atlantis is the best but it can be system dependent. As Allvinyl indicated in an earlier post Stillpoints advise their dealers to let you try the range of earthing cables as some suit different systems better and the most expensive is not invariably the best. That was Roy Gregory's experience in his Tone Audio review and it is a refreshing change from the most expensive must be the best.
That makes little sense. Chassis grounding seems to be an issue in Asia where the lions share of Tripoint has been sold. There are many audiophiles who have been exposed to both Entreq and Tripoint, and Tripoint seems to be king of the hill. They are not viewed as interchangeable or equivalent technologies. I recommend starting a thread dedicated to this subject on Audioexotics and see what kind of feedback you get.
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