Well I found the post...it was from Robert! (who also posted here #76)...almost exactly a year ago...in the Tidal Sunrays: My Take thread. Thanks Robert!
Tripoint troy signature grounding device
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Well I found the post...it was from Robert! (who also posted here #76)...almost exactly a year ago...in the Tidal Sunrays: My Take thread. Thanks Robert!
Interesting to hear Lloyd's conclusions on Tripoint Troy SE v Entreq Silver Tellus/Atlantis/Atlantis grounding leads. I don't doubt his final rankings if that's how he heard them. And I'm pretty much the only other person in the UK who's made in depth comments on the Silver Tellus system.
Where I would diverge from him is that I don't agree the pricing is similar for both products for consumers outside the States. I have 5 grounding leads, so a combination of Silver Tellus, Atlantis add-on box and 5 Atlantis leads totals £8500. A Troy SE with additional Thor grounding lead (only comes with 4) would equate to £15000.
So, for me in the UK at least, Entreq is a no brainer. And there is no official UK representation for Troy.
Where I would diverge from him is that I don't agree the pricing is similar for both products for consumers outside the States. I have 5 grounding leads, so a combination of Silver Tellus, Atlantis add-on box and 5 Atlantis leads totals £8500. A Troy SE with additional Thor grounding lead (only comes with 4) would equate to £15000.
So, for me in the UK at least, Entreq is a no brainer. And there is no official UK representation for Troy.
No offense,but I always knew I was in the wrong business. That's some serious coin for earth grounding.
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
I agree. What's different about this vs old fashioned "star grounding" which can be done for a fraction of this
Steve, I'm no expert, but I believe Entreq goes beyond star grounding to actually ground at the level of the signal plane, positively minimising eddy curerents, emi/rf etc, possibly balancing impedances in the system.
Roger, it's some serious moohlah, but as Lloyd and I have found, grounding fundamentally takes our systems in directions that even significant component changes cannot hope to.
Roger, it's some serious moohlah, but as Lloyd and I have found, grounding fundamentally takes our systems in directions that even significant component changes cannot hope to.
That's good. I too have star grounding and some amplifiers and equipment are star grounded too. I just can't get past the idea that the science and mechanics of star grounding can be fundamentally that different in implementation....$100 is not L15,000 = $24,000
http://www.sounddesigndevices.com/documents/Grounding for Small Studios.pdf
Steve williams
Site Founder, Site Owner, Administrator
i've not tried the Tripoint Troy or the Entreq grounding products personally. i have no doubt, based on other things i've read, but particularly from Lloyd's and Spirit's comments, that these products take system performance gains from grounding to a level beyond simple ground wires.....whatever the configuration.
do i know this to be 100% true? no. not yet.
however; i've done enough investigations of other power grid issues to appreciate what seemingly marginal improvements can do for performance in sorted out mature systems.
i did investigate what large heavy pure (6-9's) copper bars might cost, and it's not $100. my PhD in Physics son-in-law who runs a research lab gave me some leads to source it, and getting a 20-30 pound pure copper bar drilled and tapped for attaching leads is going to be over $500 depending.
then there are the high quality plugs and connectors and wire. nice casework. maybe one could cobble together something DIY for $1000-$2000 that might work similarly; but then you'd also need to do the tinkering to get it all figured out exactly.
and the whole thing would look like it's cobbled together.
and you'd need the type of techie knowledge that i don't have in any way.
for me personally the DIY approach is not an option. if i want to check this out i'll do it with something that has some quality feedback.
i'm not saying that everyone should do this........or Herzan active isolation platforms......or expensive record weights......or other over-the-top expensive enhancements.
but i do suspect that like those other cases one will get what one pays for.
20 to 30 pound bar??? This is nuts,I just can't see it. The greatest recording studios in the world don't use a Trinpoint Troy. I have heard about some trying battery systems,but what Muncey laid out is still the standard.
Most WBF members have installed dedicated power circuit systems tied directly back to the main ground earth. If you star ground your system back to building ground using the dedicated circuit what else is needed? If the Trinpoint addresses RFI/EMI in some way different,the star ground addresses that problem anyway. RFI/EMI is usually reduced by good shielding practices used by most hi end cable manufacturers. There can be trade offs as EMI/RFI reduction can affect high frequency reproduction. Let me point out that I haven't heard the Trinpoint,but to justify that kind of pricing ....I can't see it,I'm sorry. The Trinpoint design goes from your equipment to the duplex ground,period,pretty simple.
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No disrespect Roger, but are we really going to use recording studios as the standard by which we specify our systems at home? Unless of course you're happy with brickwalling and hot mastering? I know a well respected record producer who still swears by Yamaha mini monitors to do his listening by. So are you going to swap your spkrs for these?
I'm not sure we're comparing apples with apples when talking about star grounding v specialist grounding. If it is the same, I won't really know. And like Mike, I don't have the wherewithall to do a diy lash up to compare. All I know is that there is a LOT of Silver and Copper in the combined Silver Tellus/Atlantis boxes (poss up to 60lb, based on the weight of the 2 boxes), and the effects have been SO transformative, WELL beyond my upgrades on cables and supports otherwise, and on a par with my other power related upgrade, the move to 3kVA balanced power.
Mike may quietly laugh at this, but I'm now defending a rel. expensive upgrade that Roger and Steve are reasonably skeptical about, in a totally similar way that I was wary of in reverse when Mike was defending his pricey Herzan active supports, and I put forward words of mild derision. Boot on the other foot, Mike
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I'm not sure we're comparing apples with apples when talking about star grounding v specialist grounding. If it is the same, I won't really know. And like Mike, I don't have the wherewithall to do a diy lash up to compare. All I know is that there is a LOT of Silver and Copper in the combined Silver Tellus/Atlantis boxes (poss up to 60lb, based on the weight of the 2 boxes), and the effects have been SO transformative, WELL beyond my upgrades on cables and supports otherwise, and on a par with my other power related upgrade, the move to 3kVA balanced power.
Mike may quietly laugh at this, but I'm now defending a rel. expensive upgrade that Roger and Steve are reasonably skeptical about, in a totally similar way that I was wary of in reverse when Mike was defending his pricey Herzan active supports, and I put forward words of mild derision. Boot on the other foot, Mike
!
No disrespect Roger, but are we really going to use recording studios as the standard by which we specify our systems at home? Unless of course you're happy with brickwalling and hot mastering? I know a well respected record producer who still swears by Yamaha mini monitors to do his listening by. So are you going to swap your spkrs for these?
I'm not sure we're comparing apples with apples when talking about star grounding v specialist grounding. If it is the same, I won't really know. And like Mike, I don't have the wherewithall to do a diy lash up to compare. All I know is that there is a LOT of Silver and Copper in the combined Silver Tellus/Atlantis boxes (poss up to 60lb, based on the weight of the 2 boxes), and the effects have been SO transformative, WELL beyond my upgrades on cables and supports otherwise, and on a par with my other power related upgrade, the move to 3kVA balanced power.
Mike may quietly laugh at this, but I'm now defending a rel. expensive upgrade that Roger and Steve are reasonably skeptical about, in a totally similar way that I was wary of in reverse when Mike was defending his pricey Herzan active supports, and I put forward words of mild derision. Boot on the other foot, Mike
spiritofmusic that's ok.
I might add that good grounding effects everything that audiophiles crave,every recording is unique and you never really reach the limit as far as improvements in sound. Everything positive hits like a hammer.
Gents,
Look...I have always maintained I am no techie. We had someone come over to help me do some grounding/wiring once...connecting wires to screws on the chassis, etc. It did not do a lot, but again maybe we did it wrong.
By contrast, we can hear significant differences between Entreq Silver Tellus, vs Atlantis vs Atlantis & Atlantis cable (which was the biggest difference) and again Tripoint Troy SE...which means to me someone is doing something with all these various grounding boxes, cables, etc that is not only different from whatever we did before (or did poorly)...and further, even manufacturers themselves can create products that make substantial differences in what should be 'just grounding'.
I will also say that having a Troy SE in my system is equivalent to going from nearly a CJ PV14L (my old 10 year old mid-level CJ preamp) to my CJ GAT. That is a big jump and certainly a much bigger difference than ACT 2 v GAT (and I think there is a big difference there btw)
In the end, I am not here to talk tech because I admit I do not understand the science...I only share what I hear, and I do so honestly with no intentions other than to share. Its a great piece of equipment and it is clearly doing something right.
Look...I have always maintained I am no techie. We had someone come over to help me do some grounding/wiring once...connecting wires to screws on the chassis, etc. It did not do a lot, but again maybe we did it wrong.
By contrast, we can hear significant differences between Entreq Silver Tellus, vs Atlantis vs Atlantis & Atlantis cable (which was the biggest difference) and again Tripoint Troy SE...which means to me someone is doing something with all these various grounding boxes, cables, etc that is not only different from whatever we did before (or did poorly)...and further, even manufacturers themselves can create products that make substantial differences in what should be 'just grounding'.
I will also say that having a Troy SE in my system is equivalent to going from nearly a CJ PV14L (my old 10 year old mid-level CJ preamp) to my CJ GAT. That is a big jump and certainly a much bigger difference than ACT 2 v GAT (and I think there is a big difference there btw)
In the end, I am not here to talk tech because I admit I do not understand the science...I only share what I hear, and I do so honestly with no intentions other than to share. Its a great piece of equipment and it is clearly doing something right.
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Roger, yes I agree that this is a source of near endless improvements. To think, I considered my old Burmester conditioner to be SOTA in power tweaks! Now I'm considering laying a whole new radial main w/ dedicated consumer unit, Furutech 20A radial cabling, multiple dedicated Rhodium plated Furutech double sockets, and a beefier 8kVA or even 10kVA (maybe a big beastie 15kVA!) balanced transformer, to give that total overkill of clean, unvarying power to the system, which I'm convinced the Entreq Silver Tellus/Atlantis will augment nicely.
Lloyd, intrigued re your take on Troy SE outpacing S Tellus. I just feel that in the UK, Tripoint is not a practicality for me, and I'm so enamoured with Entreq and the UK rep's approach, that it's not a choice that is practical in any way. And I still feel it's incorrect to say the prices are comparable: in my system, a Silver Tellus/Atlantis/5 Atlantis leads equates to £8300, a substantial outlay I know. The same spec in Troy SE with the extra (5th) Thor ground lead I would need equates to $16000+$4000+shipping/customs/sales tax, c£16000 converted, so nearly twice the price. Don't feel that the price of Powerus/Cleanus should be factored in, since these are in effect multi socket distribution block devices, and the Troy SE on it's own doesn't provide these functions.
Lloyd, intrigued re your take on Troy SE outpacing S Tellus. I just feel that in the UK, Tripoint is not a practicality for me, and I'm so enamoured with Entreq and the UK rep's approach, that it's not a choice that is practical in any way. And I still feel it's incorrect to say the prices are comparable: in my system, a Silver Tellus/Atlantis/5 Atlantis leads equates to £8300, a substantial outlay I know. The same spec in Troy SE with the extra (5th) Thor ground lead I would need equates to $16000+$4000+shipping/customs/sales tax, c£16000 converted, so nearly twice the price. Don't feel that the price of Powerus/Cleanus should be factored in, since these are in effect multi socket distribution block devices, and the Troy SE on it's own doesn't provide these functions.
All audio gear makes "noise" some more then others. The ground creates a pathway for the noise to exit the system. That's why you hear a improvement in clarity,speed,dynamics,ect. Your soundstage mimics the recording venue and your speaker dispersion patterns improve. It really is surprising how much of a marked difference it can make. How much is that worth,that depends on the owner.
Hi Roger, so I can learn...when you say the Tripoint goes from equipment to duplex ground...do you mean the wall jack? The reason I ask is because the Entreq does not plug into anything. It is a huge box that sits on its own...and wires connect the various equipment to the box...from ground screw or RCA jack of the equipment to the back of the Entreq box. So (I am told) the Entreq is acting like a natural ground of its own...hence why it needs to be so heavy...its carrying its own earthing ground?? (sorry...I am no techie). I think Tripoint is also creating its own earthing ground...hence why its weights 76lbs...but it can connect to a wall (drawing no energy...just utilizing the grounding pin).
Don't wish to ask anyone to become a freshman physics professor, but thanks for any guidance here.
If all equipment was designed like the old 200 Primare line we would have no need to use fancy grounding systems - the power transformers and some parts had a static screen with a ground connector, separated from the mains ground. You should connect separate external ground lines for each piece, all of them connected at single point - this is true star ground.
If you did not want to use the separate ground lines, you could flip the switch and the screens would use the mains ground, as usual.
If you did not want to use the separate ground lines, you could flip the switch and the screens would use the mains ground, as usual.
Attachments
I don't think any of these external grounding systems are meant to replace the ground to receptacle.
I fully buy the notion that external star grounding can make a difference- i've heard it in my system using a cheap-ish commercially available unit.
Given Mike L's power set up, I'd be curious to know if the difference is more or less revealing.
To repeat, Entreq Silver Tellus DOES NOT replace the captive earthing of the component. It attaches via ground leads into spare rca/balanced/earth terminals of components to ground at the plane of the signal. Hence it deals with eddys/rf/emi polluting the signal, and prob provides a common impedance for components connected. There is no influence on the actual earthing of the electrics, which would of course not perform to code, and be a physical danger/fire hazard.
What seems to be the case is that there are electrical energies which seem to travel back into the system looking for paths of least resistance, so if these enter the audio chain, distortions result. Entreq grounding seems to present a conduit for these to irreversibly exit the system to a great point, and so allow music to bloom and stabilise, unadulterated from haze and noise. Whether star grounding does as good a job, I have no idea.
What seems to be the case is that there are electrical energies which seem to travel back into the system looking for paths of least resistance, so if these enter the audio chain, distortions result. Entreq grounding seems to present a conduit for these to irreversibly exit the system to a great point, and so allow music to bloom and stabilise, unadulterated from haze and noise. Whether star grounding does as good a job, I have no idea.
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