Tubes vs. Solid State Amps

[Audiohertz2]

Actually, the fact that nearly all transistor amps are push/pull is the main reason they are primarily generating odd order harmonics. Push/pull cancels even orders by design. Push/pull tube amps do so as well but there is more residual even order harmonics in most designs (tube matching issues??). Negative feedback tends to suppress all harmonics but it suppresses the low orders more and has the side effect of generating new, higher order harmonics. This can lead to a signal modulated "noise" floor that looks like noise but is really a myriad of distortion products. Being signal modulated and correlated it is not something one can "hear below" like one can with true noise.

The correct weighting of harmonics has been the subject of a number of papers over the decades and at least one thesis. One of the first serious attempts was a BBC engineer named D.E.L Shorter who though the weighting would be the square of the harmonic order but Cheever found that this didn't actually go far enough and that there is also an SPL dependency that needs to be accounted for.

Yet an SS/PP amplifier can do it all , bandwidth, drive , Low TIM/THD , et al , time you start focusing on those bad speakers and less so the Amp delivering the bad news..

Match load to any quality amplifier and targeted results will be met no matter type ..


Regards

 

[Audiohertz2]

Studies have shown that up to at least 2% 2nd order harmonic is inaudible...that audibility increases exponentially with increasing harmonic order...

By experience most Audiophiles cant hear 98% ...

 

[morricab]

Yet an SS/PP amplifier can do it all , bandwidth, drive , Low TIM/THD , et al , time you start focusing on those bad speakers and less so the Amp delivering the bad news..

Match load to any quality amplifier and targeted results will be met no matter type ..


Regards

If this were true then there wouldn’t be this discussion in 2024.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Here is a graph of how my left channel ML2 measures from the manual. I figure I use a fraction of a watt with my 105 dB/16 ohm speakers at listening levels of around 70-80 dB with rare peaks into the 90s, so much less than 1% THD plus noise. I don't know about 2nd harmonic or if this graph is relevant to the discussion. Even at 5 watts (which I do not think I ever hit even when blasting at 100+dB), it is around 1% if I am reading this correctly.

View attachment 102808

I know this may not be accessible , but curious to know if this system has ever been tested to verify 105db ? For the record every 1watt RMS of operating power for listening requires 100-200 watts of peak power for unclipped DR..

Regards

 

[morricab]

I know this may not be accessible , but curious to know if this system has ever been tested to verify 105db ? For the record every 1watt RMS of operating power for listening requires 100-200 watts of peak power for unclipped DR..

Regards

Based on what math? You are assuming unlimited dynamic range of recordings?

 

[Audiohertz2]

If this were true then there wouldn’t be this discussion in 2024.

Well not everyone has the same loudspeakers , music , ears, and imagination mate, the uncorrupted science and bench test measurements would agree thou ..


Regards

 

[morricab]

Well not everyone has the same loudspeakers , music , ears, and imagination mate, the uncorrupted science and bench test measurements would agree thou ..


Regards

Read a bit more on psychoacoustics.

 

[morricab]

Yet an SS/PP amplifier can do it all , bandwidth, drive , Low TIM/THD , et al , time you start focusing on those bad speakers and less so the Amp delivering the bad news..

Match load to any quality amplifier and targeted results will be met no matter type ..


Regards

And which speakers would be considered bad or good?

 

[Audiohertz2]

Based on what math? You are assuming unlimited dynamic range of recordings?

Based on what math? You are assuming unlimited dynamic range of recordings?

Based on what math? You are assuming unlimited dynamic range of recordings?

No mate actual measurements when using high DR recordings. Cordell even wrote about it and better actually measured a system at an CES event some years ago to prove his point for not under powering one’s system, a common trait among most audiophiles ..


Regards

 

[Audiohertz2]

Read a bit more on psychoacoustics.

Projecting ..?

 

[morricab]

Yet an SS/PP amplifier can do it all , bandwidth, drive , Low TIM/THD , et al , time you start focusing on those bad speakers and less so the Amp delivering the bad news..

Match load to any quality amplifier and targeted results will be met no matter type ..


Regards

And which speakers would be considered bad or good?

 

[morricab]

Projecting ..?

Projecting ..?

Nope stating the obvious, mate.

 

[morricab]

No mate actual measurements when using high DR recordings. Cordell even wrote about it and better actually measured a system at an CES event some years ago to prove his point for not under powering one’s system, a common trait among most audiophiles ..


Regards

Link?

 

[Audiohertz2]

And which speakers would be considered bad or good?

An SS amplifier like a tooby amp does require the same rigorous matching of amp to load , yet most never do just throw any load at them then complain ..

Match a quality made SS to the load and see the difference. A suggested good rule of thumb when doing so is max power needed for your listening requirements should never exceed 33% of rated power.

Regards

 

[Audiohertz2]

Nope stating the obvious, mate.

To whom , those internal voices ....!

 

[morricab]

No mate actual measurements when using high DR recordings. Cordell even wrote about it and better actually measured a system at an CES event some years ago to prove his point for not under powering one’s system, a common trait among most audiophiles ..


Regards

So if I get 100dB for 1 watt then he says I need at least 100 watts for the full dynamic range? At what SPL level do you listen? Since I listen around 80 dB average , I need about 50mW for my speakers and peaks to 100 dB around 1 watt. So, I guess it’s good I have the right speakers and amps to handle those pesky peaks.

 

[Audiohertz2]

So if I get 100dB for 1 watt then he says I need at least 100 watts for the full dynamic range? At what SPL level do you listen? Since I listen around 80 dB average , I need about 50mW for my speakers and peaks to 100 dB around 1 watt. So, I guess it’s good I have the right speakers and amps to handle those pesky peaks.

False hypotheticals aside , Yes ..!

Seeing most are under powering ( note: not saying you are ) while sipping red wine , the clipping Characteristics is what is being favored, you wont find much debate on toobs beating SS here by a longshot ..

Ohhh please to include absorption losses when doing power calculations , ohhh last but not least as a man of science and record insert your scope during one of your listening sessions ala Cordell ..


Report ..!

 

[morricab]

An SS amplifier like a tooby amp does require the same rigorous matching of amp to load , yet most never do just throw any load at them then complain ..

Match a quality made SS to the load and see the difference. A suggested good rule of thumb when doing so is max power needed for your listening requirements should never exceed 33% of rated power.

Regards

So, studies that show THD, IMD don’t correlate with listener preference don’t register with you, just power match and perfect sound forever, right?

 

[morricab]

False hypotheticals aside , Yes ..!

Seeing most are under powering while sipping red wine , the clipping Characteristics is what is being favored, you wont find much debate on toobs beating SS here by a longshot ..

Those characteristic differences hold up well below clipping… I am never listening at levels that cause clipping.

I had a friend with big McIntosh MC-501s. He liked to listen quite loud but we never went beyond 50 watts and rarely above 10 watts on his Thiels. At my preferred levels we never went above 5 watts or so. We had far better sound from those speakers with 25 SET watts…even at my levels where, by your explanation it shouldn’t be the case since we weren’t listening to clipping characteristics…as neither amp was clipping…definitely not the Macs. Repeated this with a dozen other amps…just one of many to sound better than the ultra high power, low distortion MC-501s.

 

[Audiohertz2]

So, studies that show THD, IMD don’t correlate with listener preference don’t register with you, just power match and perfect sound forever, right?

When did i say such ..?

Because of is why you need to match as you do with your tooby amp , but you know this ,

yet ..!