Tubes vs. Solid State Amps

[Audiohertz2]

Those characteristic differences hold up well below clipping… I am never listening at levels that cause clipping.

I had a friend with big McIntosh MC-501s. He liked to listen quite loud but we never went beyond 50 watts and rarely above 10 watts on his Thiels. At my preferred levels we never went above 5 watts or so. We had far better sound from those speakers with 25 SET watts…even at my levels where, by your explanation it shouldn’t be the case since we weren’t listening to clipping characteristics…as neither amp was clipping…definitely not the Macs. Repeated this with a dozen other amps…just one of many to sound better than the ultra high power, low distortion MC-501s.

I’m not getting your point , you preferred the SET what does this mean the Mac is a bad amp , not seeing how this random event negates anything ..

A bit you should know about power meters on amps , firstly you have to determine if RMS or peak , then if true RMS as most amp manufacturers today never allow true RMS or peak value readings..

Herve and a few do , DAG , PASS etc dont, customer palpitations aside ..

So did your SET beat the mac to your ears , believable , it doesn't change the facts as presented..

Regards

PS: BTW those macs have very little class ( a few watts ) A bias , necessary for proper harmonic structure on instruments and more so at low levels , not surprised of the results. Try a Vintage SS mac , it may be closer to the SET sound ..

 

[morricab]

False hypotheticals aside , Yes ..!

Seeing most are under powering ( note: not saying you are ) while sipping red wine , the clipping Characteristics is what is being favored, you wont find much debate on toobs beating SS here by a longshot ..

Ohhh please to include absorption losses when doing power calculations , ohhh last but not least as a man of science and record insert your scope during one of your listening sessions ala Cordell ..


Report ..!

In Munich the Stenheim/darTZeel room had monos with digital power readouts and they almost never went above single digit watts, even though the room was pretty loud. A couple of times in the 20s range but far from clipping. Louder than I woukd almost ever listen at home…high 80s average based on my phone app. Speaker was rated around 93dB I think.

Another example, I was at a McIntosh demo where they had their multibox reference 2Kw amps with line source Mc speakers at 95dB rating. Most music at a goodly level cruised along at 1 watt or less. Then they played something with a gunshot that put out over 1kw on the peak hold. The sales rep said, see you need this much power so you don’t clip. Too funny, mustn’t clip your gunshots…

 

[morricab]

I’m not getting your point , you preferred the SET what does this mean the Mac is a bad amp , not seeing how this random event negates anything ..

A bit you should know about power meters on amps , firstly you have to determine if RMS or peak , then if true RMS as most amp manufacturers today never allow true RMS or peak value readings..

Herve and a few do , DAG , PASS etc dont, customer palpitations aside ..

So did your SET beat the mac to your ears , believable , it doesn't change the facts as presented..

Regards

It contradicts your comments about listening primarily to clipping chacteristics. Your the one who said the SS can do it all…you just forgot to mention sounding good.

 

[Audiohertz2]

It contradicts your comments about listening primarily to clipping chacteristics. Your the one who said the SS can do it all…you just forgot to mention sounding good.

How does it contradict the measured science , lol

Does everyone have a 600 watt SS amp if they do then this does not apply, this is pure intellectual dishonesty Morricab, if you dont want a discussion just say so ..

Not everyone listens at less than 80db or so , yet its redundant , the measurements dont lie on high DR recording if you are 1-2watt RMS usage you will require 100-200 watts for unclipped reproduction , has. nothing to do with levels or sensitivity only power output..

Measured and tested not opinion walking from room to room estimating db levels ..

Ohh BTW im deaf , 1 acoustical watt to excite me ..


Regards

 

[morricab]

How does it contradict the measured science , lol

Does everyone have a 600 watt SS amp if they do then this does not apply, this is pure intellectual dishonesty Morricab, if you dont want a discussion just say so ..

Not everyone listens at less than 80db or so , yet its redundant , the measurements dont lie on high DR recording if you are 1-2watt RMS usage you will require 100-200 watts for unclipped reproduction , has. nothing to do with levels or sensitivity only power output..

Measured and tested not opinion walking from room to room estimating db levels ..

Ohh BTW im deaf , 1 acoustical watt to excite me ..


Regards

Don’t put words in my mouth. You are doing just what you accuse me of.

You were the one who said most people are just listening to different clipping characteristics and I know for a fact that this is not true for a lot of people and a lot of systems.

cordell is right if a recording has that much dynamic range but most don’t. To tell if people are listening mostly to clipping with lower powered amps then you need to know how loud 1 watt will be and what music they listen to and what distance they sit from the speakers and if it’s a line source or point source etc. You simple math point is only a basic start to the question of how much power one needs to avoid clipping.

 

[DasguteOhr]

Here is a graph of how my left channel ML2 measures from the manual. I figure I use a fraction of a watt with my 105 dB/16 ohm speakers at listening levels of around 70-80 dB with rare peaks into the 90s, so much less than 1% THD plus noise. I don't know about 2nd harmonic or if this graph is relevant to the discussion. Even at 5 watts (which I do not think I ever hit even when blasting at 100+dB), it is around 1% if I am reading this correctly.

View attachment 102808

the 6c33 tube run really hot in your lamm amp that's why the distortion values are so low. anode 175volt dc x 310mA current~54watt(max 60watt tube). be careful if you drive the diva hard, she can punish you harshly.

 

[PeterA]

This shows distortion vs. frequency. WHat you will often see is that distortion rises with frequency (and with it the character of that distortion is changing as well). The fact that the ML2 doesn't do this is a good thing. What it doesn't tell you though is the nature of that distortion. You will only see that with a FFT plot. It probably means though that the highs will sound clean and natural if the basic distortion is following the "right" pattern.

I think there are some stereophile measurements of the ML2.1 or ML2.2 that do show that data.

Lamm ML2.2 monoblock power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

Note that the ML2.2 has the same flat distortion vs. frequency plot (perhaps even better).

Plot 12 shows the FFT distortion at 50Hz and shows the dominant low order harmonics. what is important about the distortion vs. frequency plot is that it means the high frequency distortion pattern will look pretty much the same as the 50hz spectrum. You cannot say the same for amps with rising distortion vs. frequency.

The IMD is also pretty good for a SET or otherwise.


Lamm ML2.1 monoblock power amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

figures 13 and 14 confirm that the pattern remains the same for both low and higher frequencies. What is interesting is the ML2.1 has a somewhat different distortion vs. power and distortion vs. frequency from the ML2.2...not a huge difference but a difference.

These are quite good measurements for a SET.

One of my amps, the Amplifon SET 42 SE, which uses the GM70 (like the ML3) has very good measurements for a SET as well and sounds very transparent but with great tonal expression. I can imagine the Lamm to sound a lot like that.

Thank you for these additional links Brad and the further explanation.

 

[Argonaut]

the 6c33 tube run really hot in your lamm amp that's why the distortion values are so low. anode 175volt dc x 310mA current~54watt(max 60watt tube). be careful if you drive the diva hard, she can punish you harshly.

Not a particularly elegant solution Stephan imho

 

[Kingrex]

@Audire
Did you ever get a tube amp?

 

[treitz3]

Gentlemen, please stop this. If you cannot respect another member of this forum and speak politely without calling another member a troll or talking about a member, instead of the thread topic? Warnings will be issued and possible administrative action will be taken.

Please allow me to once again remind you of the TOS of this forum >>> https://www.whatsbestforum.com/help/terms/

Our goal is to have a friendly place where everyone shares ideas and information without the level of bickering and angst that other forums tend to create. Recent posting has not helped to achieve our goal. Let me also remind you that being a member of this forum is a privilege and not a right.

Post accordingly. Your forum administrators rule with a gentle hand. But should the occasion arise where we must take immediate and strong action, we will do so.

Some posts above will now be deleted.

Tom

 

[Republicoftexas69]

How does it contradict the measured science , lol

Does everyone have a 600 watt SS amp if they do then this does not apply, this is pure intellectual dishonesty Morricab, if you dont want a discussion just say so ..

Not everyone listens at less than 80db or so , yet its redundant , the measurements dont lie on high DR recording if you are 1-2watt RMS usage you will require 100-200 watts for unclipped reproduction , has. nothing to do with levels or sensitivity only power output..

Measured and tested not opinion walking from room to room estimating db levels ..

Ohh BTW im deaf , 1 acoustical watt to excite me ..


Regards

Out of curiosity what component are you using in your system? Nothing on your about page. Trying to understand your perspective and this would be helpful. Also have you owned tube equipment in the past.

 

[Audiohertz2]

Out of curiosity what component are you using in your system? Nothing on your about page. Trying to understand your perspective and this would be helpful. Also have you owned tube equipment in the past.

Yes i got my first tube amp in 1972 and have had one ever since , tons of toobs and SS over the years . BTW not giving my opinion or perspective I’m passing on the science its not affected by opinion ..

Every amplifier has to be matched to the load its driving , toob or SS ..



Regards

 

[PeterA]

@Audire
Did you ever get a tube amp?

Joe has left the forum. You can find him on audio Nirvana. He just bought a new turntable that was expertly set up and he seems thrilled with the sound of his system. I think he is investigating amplifier options.

 

[PeterA]

the 6c33 tube run really hot in your lamm amp that's why the distortion values are so low. anode 175volt dc x 310mA current~54watt(max 60watt tube). be careful if you drive the diva hard, she can punish you harshly.

I generally listen in the 70 to 80 dB range with occasional peaks to 90. Sometimes I blast some rock music with peaks to 100. The diva never seems to be hard driven with my very efficient horn speakers. I’ve never heard any strain and frankly I don’t know if I’ve ever used more than a few of the 18 Watts available. I appreciate the warning about my apparently inelegant amplifier solutions.

Vladimir Lamm was asked about the ideal speaker pairing for his ML2 amplifier. He suggested a pair of the original Vitavox CN - 191 corner horns, if they could be found. They were 30 or 40 years old at that time, and he specified only the original first version which is quite rare. He told this to David Karmeli who had asked the question, and thus began David’s 20 year search for an untouched unmodified original pair.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Yes i got my first tube amp in 1972 and have had one ever since , tons of toobs and SS over the years . BTW not giving my opinion or perspective I’m passing on the science its not affected by opinion ..

Every amplifier has to be matched to the load its driving , toob or SS ..



Regards

Ok still your perspective and you still did not tell us what your kit is. No matter your opinions are your opinions. I am sure you will have a retort but save the strokes you will need them later, ignore again. Also you are 51 and 1972 was 52 years ago.

 

[treitz3]

Keep pushing the envelope guys....you will NOT like what will happen.

More comments and posts have been deleted. Please, either discuss the topic at hand and not the poster, or risk administrative action. This is your last warning.

Tom

 

[DasguteOhr]

I generally listen in the 70 to 80 dB range with occasional peaks to 90. Sometimes I blast some rock music with peaks to 100. The diva never seems to be hard driven with my very efficient horn speakers. I’ve never heard any strain and frankly I don’t know if I’ve ever used more than a few of the 18 Watts available. I appreciate the warning about my apparently inelegant amplifier solutions.

Vladimir Lamm was asked about the ideal speaker pairing for his ML2 amplifier. He suggested a pair of the original Vitavox CN - 191 corner horns, if they could be found. They were 30 or 40 years old at that time, and he specified only the original first version which is quite rare. He told this to David Karmeli who had asked the question, and thus began David’s 20 year search for an untouched unmodified original pair.

no doubt this a good amplifier, I have heard and measured them. It doesn't matter whether if you hear with 100 milliwatts or 18 watts , the tube being operated at the limit( idle current).
The second 6c33 and two other tubes are used to keep the anode voltage stable. 15 volts more on the anode and tube would die quickly. have fun listening to music.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

The one that is better is the topology you enjoy the most. I have both in my home. Listening to GaN mono blocks today, tubes last night. No right no wrong what ever works for Your system.

 

[morricab]

The one that is better is the topology you enjoy the most. I have both in my home. Listening to GaN mono blocks today, tubes last night. No right no wrong what ever works for Your system.

What do you have for tubes?

 

[Republicoftexas69]

What do you have for tubes?

Audio Hungary Qualiton X200.