Tweaks, Cables, and Filtration: Essential for World-Class Stereo Performance?

[Robh3606]

Two ways to go in this hobby- 1) Chasing the wind. Ie going after every new component upgrade when it is released or getting the latest hot item being talked about on the web. 2) Build a system you like and enjoy the music.

I don't know about that I have had a solid core of electronics for the most part and have upgraded my speakers as new tech became available. I am kind of in the middle. I am a speaker keeper so I have almost all of the speakers I have owned either in active "mini systems" or in storage so I can "go back" by walking into another room. It's fun!

Rob

 

[Mike Lavigne]

where do tweaks, cables and filters fit into building a system aspiring to be world class?

as far as the question of the OP for the thread; my own viewpoint is that tweaks, cables and filtration can as easily get in the way, as to boost a system aspiring to be world class. what i mean is that building a system including the room is a process. it's not linear. and can be a struggle, but certainly a fun one and satisfying along the way. at first you are viewing all the information and trying to navigate as best you can sampling this and that, going down some dead ends, and successes, until you find some progress. once you do break through into the clear at a certain point and find a little bit of a reference and direction, then maybe you jettison some of the tweaks, cables and filters that had seemed to attach themselves to you, but are not plainly helping.

maybe you cycle through that process a few times. but get to a point where you want to hear your system naked and true, and then carefully add enhancing accessories that push you closer to a now refined reference. and from this point forward, tweaks, cables and filters ought to fall in line with your refined sonic compass. and not get in the way. you remove them from time to time to make sure they still serve your reference and musical immersion.

i am a believer that most tweaks should be cherry-on-top kinda things. the system should be right first, then and only then can a tweak be judged. tweaks should not fix problems with their 'viewpoint', they should advance an already correct viewpoint. improve realism. don't build with teaks, or you won't know where you are. finish with tweaks......cables......filters.

i certainly have plenty of tweaks, cables and filters in my system. in 2015, after 11 years in my dedicated room learning and messing around cycling thru the process a few times, i spent 9 months tuning my system acoustically and have not touched room set-up since. the tweaks i now use have been vetted or added since that point of establishing my solid reference. this process has worked for me. YMMV.

 

[Elliot G.]

The above mentioned things are essential. But like everything else there are good products that help lower the noise floor and there are bad products that make the system worse.

An audio playback chain is a system. We listen to the system. The system is composed ofall of its parts as well as the space and position it is occupying. Everything we do to the system effects the results. Everything. So which camef irst in the circular discussion the chicken or the egg.
Are these devices important? which is most important? in what order should these items be used? what goes with what?
I believe as does the OG that cables are a component and should be used as a complete loom. The interaction of different brands just adds additional variables to this never ending puzzle and only makes the results less predictable and unrealistic in trying to figure out what is doing what and in this case why? Are there cable interactions? I believe there are.
There is noise, color, distortion, speed, bandwidth, gain etc The signal itself creates noise and the sound creates vibration and noise as well.
IMO these discussions are circular and there is no Absolute answer. Audiophiles want to find the silver bullet. That "thing" when inserted fixes all the errors many of which are self inflicted.
We all are working with what we have for the space plus the gear we like for whatever reasons. the arrangement of the space with the gear also called the set up and then dealing with the picture we have started to paint.
Good room, good placement to me are the most important things the rest is choices of what you find that pleases your expectations and experiences and the rest is mostly trying to make what you did sound more like something it isnt.

This is a never ending discussion and its the same as most other audio discussions what you like is what you like and very few ever vary much from this initial premise.
There are a great number of excellent products being made. There are less people that know what and how to deal with them.

 

[Robh3606]

The system is composed of all of its parts as well as the space and position it is occupying. Everything we do to the system effects the results. Everything. So which came first in the circular discussion the chicken or the egg.

I just think a lot of people take what should be common sense and completely blow a simple matter out of proportion.

You purchase a basic system as a starter and then go from there. That initial system is you egg. Your evolution as you gain experience along with the system changes you make as you learn are the "chicken".

We have to start somewhere and that somewhere is the root of all that will follow.

YMMV Rob

 

[Elliot G.]

We have to start somewhere and that somewhere is the root of all that will follow.

This is true and spending the time and effort to make where you start work is VERY valuable. Need the foundation .

 

[Lee]

where do tweaks, cables and filters fit into building a system aspiring to be world class?

as far as the question of the OP for the thread; my own viewpoint is that tweaks, cables and filtration can as easily get in the way, as to boost a system aspiring to be world class. what i mean is that building a system including the room is a process. it's not linear. and can be a struggle, but certainly a fun one and satisfying along the way. at first you are viewing all the information and trying to navigate as best you can sampling this and that, going down some dead ends, and successes, until you find some progress. once you do break through into the clear at a certain point and find a little bit of a reference and direction, then maybe you jettison some of the tweaks, cables and filters that had seemed to attach themselves to you, but are not plainly helping.

maybe you cycle through that process a few times. but get to a point where you want to hear your system naked and true, and then carefully add enhancing accessories that push you closer to a now refined reference. and from this point forward, tweaks, cables and filters ought to fall in line with your refined sonic compass. and not get in the way. you remove them from time to time to make sure they still serve your reference and musical immersion.

i am a believer that most tweaks should be cherry-on-top kinda things. the system should be right first, then and only then can a tweak be judged. tweaks should not fix problems with their 'viewpoint', they should advance an already correct viewpoint. improve realism. don't build with teaks, or you won't know where you are. finish with tweaks......cables......filters.

i certainly have plenty of tweaks, cables and filters in my system. in 2015, after 11 years in my dedicated room learning and messing around cycling thru the process a few times, i spent 9 months tuning my system acoustically and have not touched room set-up since. the tweaks i now use have been vetted or added since that point of establishing my solid reference. this process has worked for me. YMMV.

I believe the best answer to your initial question is that everything matters. Cumulatively I believe they have the impact of a component. The addition of grounding to my own system taught me that.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I believe the best answer to your initial question is that everything matters. Cumulatively I believe they have the impact of a component. The addition of grounding to my own system taught me that.

but stay away from extreme grounding until your baseline is set and you like it.

throwing serious grounding in too soon will skew the foundation and later hold you back. signal path gear needs to stand on it's own. to hit the moon, need to launch in the right direction. ground boxes will skew the initial viewpoint of source and amplification.

 

[Lee]

but stay away from extreme grounding until your baseline is set and you like it.

throwing serious grounding in too soon will skew the foundation and later hold you back. signal path gear needs to stand on it's own. to hit the moon, need to launch in the right direction. ground boxes will skew the initial viewpoint of source and amplification.

I agree. I think the tweaks come after a baseline of speaker placement and room optimization. And of course, the amp and speaker pairing is critical.

 

[thedudeabides]

my system sounds amazing- no intentions of changing anything there for a good while, if ever now.

Glad you've "arrived" and are content with your system sound for "a good while". Hope / trust it stays that way. But then again, audio can be like a drug addiction. Many say that but choose (for a variety of reasons) to continue the journey.

 

[treitz3]

but stay away from extreme grounding until your baseline is set and you like it.

throwing serious grounding in too soon will skew the foundation and later hold you back. signal path gear needs to stand on it's own. to hit the moon, need to launch in the right direction. ground boxes will skew the initial viewpoint of source and amplification.

Hey, Mike. Good evening to you. If you would be so kind, could you please explain "Extreme" grounding?

Tom

 

[exupgh12]

Like I said. All the systems are in a custom room built specifically for audio. The owners are all very involved in tuning the system themselves and have years of time invested in tweaking the system. Oddly, all the systems are dynamic driver with a SS amp. I like tube at my house. But I can not deny what I hear in the field.

I would like to hear a world class horn system. I have heard very good horns. But I have always walked away knowing I had been listening to a horn. Having said that, one horn system in particular did something no dynamic driver has done. Brought me to tears. And it placed me on the stage in a way I have never heard before. It was surreal. Problem was, the electronics had massive noise issues. So much hum. And I don't know I could sit in that space every day and listen. It was a bit overwhelming. Amazing, but overwhelming.

How about an Avantgarde Trio with four Basshorns, powered by two SET mono amps—would that qualify as world-class? The other two systems, meanwhile, use solid-state amplifiers since their speakers are more challenging to drive.


.

 

[exupgh12]

I will be there, but we don’t set up an active display. We go to meet with our partners in Europe and Asia, nonstop, wall-to-wall meetings. However, I’ll buy you a beer

if I manage to get to Munich this year, I’d be more than happy to meet and share that beer with you when you have a moment between meetings.

Guy

 

[Ted Denney III]

The cable loom

How about an Avantgarde Trio with four Basshorns, powered by two SET mono amps—would that qualify as world-class? The other two systems, meanwhile, use solid-state amplifiers since their speakers are more challenging to drive.


.

Personally one of the best systems I’ve been called in to work on featured the Avantgarde Trio although it had six, not four AG corner bass horns. And when we finished with it, yes, it was absolutely world class. The other system, Ohm horns, driven by low-watt tube electronics, plus their sub woofers. That is the best system I’ve ever worked on, perhaps the only system I’ve heard that I prefer to my own.

 

[Ted Denney III]

if I manage to get to Munich this year, I’d be more than happy to meet and share that beer with you when you have a moment between meetings.

Guy

Guy,
Let’s stay in touch, and I’ll send you a PM as to how you can contact me in Munich. When I know, you will know.

Ted

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hey, Mike. Good evening to you. If you would be so kind, could you please explain "Extreme" grounding?

Tom

Tom,

the term 'grounding' has so many meanings to audiophiles in system building that it's important to differentiate between proper basic A/C power grid grounding and other let's say basic grounding (although these things are also related and peripherally involved with more extreme grounding). and i view these housekeeping areas of grounding as fair game for us to be through about to judge our system 'naked'. for the gear and our acoustic set-up to be judged on a basic level. so we are choosing the right gear for our direction in an honest fashion.

for instance i view my Equi=tech 10WQ Wall Panel system with it's separate ground rod as part of basic grounding. and i view all my power cords and Furutech NCF plugs and outlets as basic grounding. i view grounding chassis here and there, or grounding your racks, or using Star grounding as basic grounding. we can go down that road a long way and still stay with my view of basic grounding. in many ways most of this type grounding is almost free.

'extreme' grounding is adding boxes with exotic materials, or maybe powered boxes that are doing this or that, or say a grounded interconnect attached to a separate grounding box. in my system i have -2- Tripoint boxes, the Elite and the Troy. i have -6- Entreq ground boxes, i have -5- Taiko Setchi ground boxes, and a single Pranawire Gounding Interceptor. these boxes are connected to chassis or signal path and add something, or take away something. at one point i had two sets of Tara Labs Grandmaster Evolution interconnects with dual mono block grounding stations. even though it's an interconnect the added grounding boxes makes it 'extreme'.

maybe others might view the line dividing 'informed basic grounding' and 'extreme' grounding differently than me. maybe they @marty cut hairs that my choice of 'Rhodium' NCF plugs instead of 'Gold' NCF plugs is 'extreme'.....and something not neutral. ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion. but ultimately to judge a starting point to feel your system is doing things right and hitting your reference i think it's important to stay basic with grounding.

obviously there are plenty of tweaks not related to grounding that also should be removed prior to significant system building decisions too; but 'extreme' grounding is one where it can fool you into not seeing the forest for the trees. 'extreme' grounding should only be additive, and you should always listen to new gear with and without it so you know what is actually going on.

maybe your choice of gear is significantly changed with or without grounding. and you make a decision that 'A' with extreme grounding is better than 'B' with 'extreme' grounding....but 'B' is better without that 'extreme' grounding. and maybe you prefer 'B' naked to 'A' with extreme grounding. at least you have uncovered a deeper truth and can make a more informed decision since you have more information. but unless you have your process of considering the 'extreme' grounding effect how could you know that?

btw; generally i do not view resonance treatments as 'tweaks'; but some are quite extreme. and can have tonal influences that are significant. so resonance treatments need to be seriously vetted to make sure they are completely friendly and not just applied without investigation. and when changing gear resonance treatments need to be again visited. this might sound obvious but it is important to realize cause and effect.

 

[treitz3]

Excellent. Thanks for taking the time to answer my query, Mike. Much appreciated.

Tom

 

[exupgh12]

The cable loom


Personally one of the best systems I’ve been called in to work on featured the Avantgarde Trio although it had six, not four AG corner bass horns. And when we finished with it, yes, it was absolutely world class. The other system, Ohm horns, driven by low-watt tube electronics, plus their sub woofers. That is the best system I’ve ever worked on, perhaps the only system I’ve heard that I prefer to my own.

I'm sure my good friend would love to have six bass horns instead of four, if only he could figure out how to place the last two on top of the ones he already has.

 

[Ted Denney III]

I'm sure my good friend would love to have six bass horns instead of four, if only he could figure out how to place the last two on top of the ones he already has.

These were stackable, and I worked on this system over 10 years ago. The speakers went up for sale a few years back, and I’m deeply disappointed in myself for not buying the system. Someday, when I retire, I’ll have a big horn system. But as it is now, I need to engineer products around dynamic driver speakers because that’s where the industry and consumers are.

 

[Kingrex]

How about an Avantgarde Trio with four Basshorns, powered by two SET mono amps—would that qualify as world-class? The other two systems, meanwhile, use solid-state amplifiers since their speakers are more challenging to drive.


.

Not if It was in a 12 x 14 room!!!!!!!!

 

[tima]

I feel like your being a little knee jerk, anti Ted reactive. I know people that have tuning devices on their cable. One is a world class system I listened too. The owner does not futz around with the tuning device. But he used it to get the sound exactly where he wanted it, then marked the cable and left it alone. Having a slight level of adjustability may be an asset.

Why -- because I know what I want?