US Anti-Doping Agency charges Armstrong

[GaryProtein]

It's a way of speech Frantz. ...All sports are related, all sports are different. .........

Chess is NOT a sport!

I just thought I'd throw that into the mix!

 

[MylesBAstor]

That's true, but some have more fast twitch and others have more slow twitch muscle fibers. Some will sprint better and some will go distances better. That's what makes the difference between athletes. Some are better at some things than others. Some have better coaches, so they do better. It's the sum of all the factors that makes the winner. You wouldn't say at the end of a race that cyclist X lost because his coach wasn't as good as cyclist Y and make a formal complaint because of that. . . .

It's a level playing field because everybody has the same opportunity to avail themselves of whatever they chose to use-and they do. Some people have better bicycles and coaches, some have better vitamins, some have better food, some have better steroids. They are available to all. They should be free to use whatever they desire to build their bodies. Yes, there are prices to pay for using certain materials and I have mentioned them in prior posts.

Gary I see that as semantics.

Because of these factors, not everybody's body responds the same way. So in what way is that level?

 

[NorthStar]

Chess is NOT a sport!

I just thought I'd throw that into the mix!

---- It's a game (mind game)! :b

...And Lance also played a game. ...He forgot that it was a fair (unfair) sport.

 

[KBK]

Regarding the entire subject, I was regaled by a tale, from a friend. it involved a survey done with world class athletes. Olympic material and such.

One of the questions in the survey, was (I paraphrase).."If you where given the opportunity to win the gold, to be at the top of the sport, but that the solution would kill you in 5 years, would you 'do it'?"

The answer in over 70% of the people in the survey was a resounding YES.

 

[NorthStar]

-- That is really sad, truly true, and very bad!

The human race is low, very low. ....At a all time low?

 

[FrantzM]

Regarding the entire subject, I was regaled by a tale, from a friend. it involved a survey done with world class athletes. Olympic material and such.

One of the questions in the survey, was (I paraphrase).."If you where given the opportunity to win the gold, to be at the top of the sport, but that the solution would kill you in 5 years, would you 'do it'?"

The answer in over 70% of the people in the survey was a resounding YES.

Interesting. How old were they on average?

 

[ack]

It was doper versus dopers in the tour. Even slate if you ask me.

Given the latest Oprah developments, here is an interesting compilation of past claims in chronological order in this thread, with the acknowledgement that just about everyone agreed he "won" in a level playing field. So:

1. Where do those originally in favor of Lance Armstrong stand now;
2. do you still think highly of him or even the sport itself, and you still think he actually won and won fairly and squarely;
3. do you think the process leading up to his confession has been fair or unfair (including the USADA report and its approach, the stripping of his titles - which are now vacated, the fact there has been no legal trial yet - just a "Kangaroo Court" as claimed, the fact his Tufts degree has been rescinded, etc.); and
4. do you still think the whole issue should have been put to rest because it was a level playing field and no hard evidence (no positive blood tests) was presented?

These people need to move on. He won fair and square, imo.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...rges-Armstrong&p=120469&viewfull=1#post120469

I completely understand Armstrong's weariness in fighting this. If it turns out there is only witness testimony to support USADA's action, I will understand it even better. You can't win a "he said, she said" battle in a venue biased against you.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...rges-Armstrong&p=130474&viewfull=1#post130474

For me, he will always be a hero

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...rges-Armstrong&p=130498&viewfull=1#post130498

So this is all based on hearsay...doping allegations by former teammates who got zero fame and have an axe to grind? How many tests has he taken over the years and passed ? If they have one sample that tests positive, how do we know it wasn't tainted. Here's what's going on. France hated the fact that their national sport Tour de France was won by an American and 7 times. Lance was the greatest cyclist of all time to the chagrin of Europeans. What a travesty.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...rges-Armstrong&p=130558&viewfull=1#post130558

Where is the hard evidence other than hearsay by disgruntled team mates, associates ? Show me one tainted sample of Lance's blood...they have none. I highly doubt the Tour De France will strip him of his titles.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...rges-Armstrong&p=141813&viewfull=1#post141813

If he was cheating, so was everyone else for that matter. Who get's the title then ? This whole thing should be put to rest.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...rges-Armstrong&p=141828&viewfull=1#post141828

On the one hand, this could be some huge conspiracy, the objective of which is not clear (to me) and on the other, Lance is actually guilty.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...rges-Armstrong&p=144582&viewfull=1#post144582

I guess the governing bodies are as I described...a Kanga Court.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...rges-Armstrong&p=145459&viewfull=1#post145459

IMO he is still the greatest cyclist of all time regardless of race, creed, color or nationality. And as Christian said Bob he has never failed a drug test. He has in his eyes at least, come clean by telling the world that he has never failed a test so what would you want him to say...Just trying to teach Bob that another Law of the land is indeed a person is innocent until proven guilty otherwise as Christian says you are convicting him in a Kangaroo Court.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...rges-Armstrong&p=145497&viewfull=1#post145497

Sorry...the tour de france actually had winners and seven of those times was Lance, much to your chagrin...lol

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...rges-Armstrong&p=149727&viewfull=1#post149727

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Well .. This may put his presumed innocence to rest ...

Click HERE

 

[steve williams]

Nice summary of our thoughts here Peter

For my mind, it is all too sad. I can recall when he won his second TDF I was in France at the time and had never heard his name until he made every major head line and was the talk of the world having beaten stage 4 testicular cancer. It heightened my awareness of a sport that I heretofore could care less about. I followed every stage of the next 5 TDF as I was so mesmerized by his success

 

[ack]

Having patiently waited it out, and given that my only real contributing comment so far to this thread has been that I was so glad to see ALL team members go down in flames, here's what I think of what has transpired: Armstrong is a lying, conniving, manipulative failure of a human being, first among a bunch of dopes, who happens to have beaten cancer (and we all sympathized with his plight); he won nothing and neither did anyone else; the power of testimony under oath by a _plurality_ of witnesses is still there, and can establish facts beyond a reasonable doubt (though, indeed, so many have been incorrectly convicted in our legal system due to circumstantial evidence, which really means it "all depends on the circumstances" - with no shadows in this particular case); whatever evidence was presented was overwhelming enough to allay any conspiracy theories; the sport has no credibility anymore; he was more than fairly treated and agencies proceeded in a fair and square fashion, and that's the only "fair" and "square" aspect about this entire affair. The entire affair is a disgrace to the world of sport and its true competitive spirit. Can Armstrong ride a bike better than me? Definitely. Do I feel inferior??? Your guess.

Peter

 

[Gregadd]

If you followed my position through the entirety of this thread , I acknowledged the widespread use of drugs in cycling. The of EPO in particular. Check back to the lists of young cyclist with premature deaths. I also posted an article where young cylcist could not sleep at night because there blood was so thick it would not circulate properly during their sleep.
We live in an accusatorial system not an inquisitorial system. There is no doubt that Armstrong was the victim of an inquisition. Where the governing bodies ignored their own test results. They bullied confessions form lessor known riders. They ignored there own "gold standard" of drug tests. It remains that a properly conducted positive test is the death knell for any athletes being tested. i hope then that the goood that comes fro this is that a positve drug can also be challenged. I doubt that will happen.
Turning to Armstrong. He has acted selfishly. He has destroyed the TdF and maybe the sport of cycling. I have no sympathy for investors who made far more money than they lost.
I agree with Peter the time for Armstrong to confess came and went. According to Oprah he did not"come clean".he owes it to every athletes to reveal exactly how he achieved 500 negative test results. Only then can other athletes negative test results have validity.

Kangaroo Court: It is defined by the process they follow and not by the results they achieve.

 

[MasterChief]

Given the latest Oprah developments, here is an interesting compilation of past claims in chronological order in this thread, with the acknowledgement that just about everyone agreed he "won" in a level playing field. So:

1. Where do those originally in favor of Lance Armstrong stand now;
2. do you still think highly of him or even the sport itself, and you still think he actually won and won fairly and squarely;
3. do you think the process leading up to his confession has been fair or unfair (including the USADA report and its approach, the stripping of his titles - which are now vacated, the fact there has been no legal trial yet - just a "Kangaroo Court" as claimed, the fact his Tufts degree has been rescinded, etc.); and
4. do you still think the whole issue should have been put to rest because it was a level playing field and no hard evidence (no positive blood tests) was presented?

1. As a former huge fan of Lance I have taken the stand some time ago that I will see him as not guilty until he actually confess. Now I feel betrayed, as if my wife had been cheating on me (but of course the magnitude of betrayal is different).
2. No, absolutely not. I am, at this moment, done with pro cycling. And I have been there live watching Lance and also followed every TdF in detail. Landis, Basso, Contador, Schleck...the list have been long and hard to deal with...this was...to much...I will only watch MLG from now on.
3. I actually don´t know.
4. No

I was so f*cking wrong about this. But Lance has given me so much joy under so many years. I fell in love with the true american hero saga. The struggle and the fight. The lying under so many years actually hurts for real.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

i'm waiting 6 months to decide how i really feel. right now i just don't want to think about it.

i was a huge fan, watched and cheered all the Tours. loved it and loved Lance. not so much careing about what really happened. now it's 'different'. but i'm conflicted about how to feel.

kinda the same with the Baseball HOF debate. not sure exactly how i view it. i'd rather not think about it.

sports for me is pure fun. if it's not fun i go listen, or go for a walk. i don't want to give space in my mind to negative thoughts. life is too short to get my panties in a bunch. but at some point i'll face it and see how i really feel.

 

[jazdoc]

i'm waiting 6 months to decide how i really feel. right now i just don't want to think about it.

i was a huge fan, watched and cheered all the Tours. loved it and loved Lance. not so much careing about what really happened. now it's 'different'. but i'm conflicted about how to feel.

kinda the same with the Baseball HOF debate. not sure exactly how i view it. i'd rather not think about it.

sports for me is pure fun. if it's not fun i go listen, or go for a walk. i don't want to give space in my mind to negative thoughts. life is too short to get my panties in a bunch. but at some point i'll face it and see how i really feel.

As someone who never really bought into the hoopla regarding Armstrong and Live Strong, I'm glad to see him finally 'fessing up. But to make amends, he should return all of his ill-gotten wealth which is estimated to be ~$100 Million. Perhaps donating the bulk to Live Strong would be a nice gesture.

In many ways, this epitomizes the problems with our celebrity driven culture. I always kind of liked Charles Barkley's Nike Ad "I am not a role model".

That said, celebrities need to understand that rightly or wrongly, others look up to them and their actions have impact in the broader culture.


I have much different feelings about baseball players who may or may not have used PEDs in baseball. The HOF should be about baseball. If Bonds and Clemens never used PEDs, they are still first ballot Hall of Famers. I can't stand the righteous indignation of the BBWA members who failed to do their jobs during 'the steroid era' and now presume to be the arbiters of morality for the HOF. Personally, I think that no sports writer who was working during the 'steroid era' should be allowed in the writers/broadcasters' wing as punishment for their failures. There are many MLB players who were abject failures as human beings and role models but are in the HOF. Also, should players prior to integration not be allowed because they played against inferior competition?

 

[KBK]

Interesting. How old were they on average?

IIRC, in their 20's. Like most athletes, probably near that bodily peak of 25-30. I'd have to ask the person who regaled me with that one.

Scratch that one up to the blindness of people immersed in their position until the blinkered mental state results in such a narrow view that is it like drowning and the only way up is to win at any cost.

I'd say that on the psychological front, it is just another aspect, another angle of viewing/seeing the given people being 'driven' by the wiring and psychosis in lets say, a tribal religion that is taken too far.

For example, that if a real answer, that functioned...to the question of 'ending of human warfare' was presented to an individual of conscience -but with a price... most would take a guaranteed death in an effort to bring that to humanity. I mean, there would not even be question or hesitation about it. The ending of violent death is a form of life, and most would pay dearly for that.

One might think that the opposite expression of the above..in the form of the very egocentric aspect of competitive sports, would be to sacrifice life itself, in it's continuance, in the form of acceptance of death, as a result of 'perfection and best' being granted to the in-situ mental orientation. Possibly to be seen as a manifestation of the same mechanism, turned back in on its self.

If folks think that I'm calling competitive sports as harboring or making a space in it's expression for selfish and violent ego manifestations, you might be right.

Comparatively, that there are good people in the military but you can't make a perfect nest/landing-space for psychotics, and narcissistic low empathy genetic anomalies.....and expect that they'll never appear in your midst. The same goes for tribal religions. The military, like competitive sports, is full of people who might be termed as self affected psychotics, but most of them have a good cover story. And yes, there are good people in both areas. But that it is a terminal mistake (projection) to identify one's own psychology and wiring as being intrinsic in that of other.

 

[GaryProtein]

Gary I see that as semantics.

Because of these factors, not everybody's body responds the same way. So in what way is that level?

Some people can lift weights all day not and not get bulked, some people can lift weights for 20 minutes a day and look great. Bodies are not the same, but they have the same opportunities. Likewise, some people are more intelligent that others. Some people can understand Einstein, others cannot. People aren't created equal, but they have the same opportunities for training. Some people can get into Mensa, most cannot.

OK, anybody should use whatever they have available to win. That has always been my basic premise.

Bodies are not created equal, some are better than others. That's why some people keep winning and other keep losing.

The one who is best able to control his/her body for a given sport wins.

I guess I should just say, "do whatever you need to do to make your body the winning one." NO RULES in training protocols.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Some people can lift weights all day not and not get bulked, some people can lift weights for 20 minutes a day and look great. Bodies are not the same, but they have the same opportunities. Likewise, some people are more intelligent that others. Some people can understand Einstein, others cannot. People aren't created equal, but they have the same opportunities for training. Some people can get into Mensa, most cannot.

OK, anybody should use whatever they have available to win. That has always been my basic premise.

Bodies are not created equal, some are better than others. That's why some people keep winning and other keep losing.

The one who is best able to control his/her body for a given sport wins.

I guess I should just say, "do whatever you need to do to make your body the winning one." NO RULES in training protocols.

Whether or not one gets "bulked" has little to do with the individual. It's much more complicated than the simplistic assumption you're making

 

[KBK]

1. As a former huge fan of Lance I have taken the stand some time ago that I will see him as not guilty until he actually confess. Now I feel betrayed, as if my wife had been cheating on me (but of course the magnitude of betrayal is different).
2. No, absolutely not. I am, at this moment, done with pro cycling. And I have been there live watching Lance and also followed every TdF in detail. Landis, Basso, Contador, Schleck...the list have been long and hard to deal with...this was...to much...I will only watch MLG from now on.
3. I actually don´t know.
4. No

I was so f*cking wrong about this. But Lance has given me so much joy under so many years. I fell in love with the true american hero saga. The struggle and the fight. The lying under so many years actually hurts for real.

What about Cavendouche?

 

[ack]

I was so f*cking wrong about this. But Lance has given me so much joy under so many years. I fell in love with the true american hero saga. The struggle and the fight. The lying under so many years actually hurts for real.

Your admission to all of this makes you superior!

 

[Bruce B]