van den Hul Colibri Grand Cru

[Ron Resnick]

Still waiting for my Grand Cru to sound better than the Opus1. The Master Sig is still my first sword. The Opus1 second sword. Most reliable goes to the Opus.

But, Tang, I thought the Grand Cru sounded A+ in certain ways (with an occasional A-) whereas the Opus 1 was a more consistent A?

From what I heard at audioquattr comparing directly a Grand Cru on a 3012R to a Master Signature on a 3012R, with both tonearms on the same turntable, I never preferred the Master Signature, which was always slightly more edgy or more aggressive with no countervailing benefit over the Grand Cru.

 

[adyc]

Still waiting for my Grand Cru to sound better than the Opus1. The Master Sig is still my first sword. The Opus1 second sword. Most reliable goes to the Opus.

I do not have Opus 1. But I agree with you. I found my MS is better than GC. MS is more dynamic and exciting although GC is smoother. My GC is still very young. Maybe it will change with more hours on it.

 

[Lagonda]

Tang, can you in your simple way describe the differences you are hearing? Thank you.

Nothing simple about Tang's ways Peter !

 

[PeterA]

Nothing simple about Tang's ways Peter !

Perhaps not, but I like his simple language and how he gets straight to the point of what he is trying to say. Very little audiophile jargon.

 

[Ron Resnick]

I do not have Opus 1. But I agree with you. I found my MS is better than GC. MS is more dynamic and exciting although GC is smoother. My GC is still very young. Maybe it will change with more hours on it.

Of course; absolutely. It is totally personal preference, and system dependent.

In a different system context, I think either one may be the perfect cartridge for, for example, a system with Tannoy Westminsters.

For me personally, the Grand Cru already is more than exciting enough. I look forward to having one on a 3012R someday!

 

[Tango]

I do not have Opus 1. But I agree with you. I found my MS is better than GC. MS is more dynamic and exciting although GC is smoother. My GC is still very young. Maybe it will change with more hours on it.

We seem to be experiencing the same thing.

 

[Tango]

Tang, can you in your simple way describe the differences you are hearing? Thank you.

Ok Peter. In a simple way. The first thing came to mind when listened to the Grand Cru was "This is a tame down version of MS." Less exciting and less emotional as @adyc said. Smoother? Not really. My MS 5R is smoother. Maybe @adyc actually meant "broad brushing". That is what I would describe the sound scene. The mid is like I raised my sub xover another 30-40Hz. Fuller sound but the articulation, clear air around instrument and sense of space and volume in the back stage diminish to some extent. I used Reiner's Scheherazade and Al DiMeola's Friday Night in San Fran to compare. And also used Opus1 as a benchmark to beat

From my experience vdh clarity and resolution greatly improve over time. But what I described above is a comparison with the Master Sig 5R that came back from vdh mod at the same time and the fully burned in Opus1. My comment is limited to the Gran Cru unit I have. Other people may have a better Gran Cru than mine. With vdh you have to listen each cart and cannot really generalize that all units of same model would sound the same. You find a great sounding one, you buy "that" unit...even if it has been used. And don't even think of buying a second hand from a secondary market unless you have heard it yourself.

 

[tima]

I noticed that your shell has wooden screw threads like the one I received and sold. Bazelio's had metal screw threads. Which is the reason for this?

My first Master Signature (which was returned due to suspension defects) had metal screw threads. One of the embedded "nuts" just fell out. There was nothing holding them to the wood except a little bit of glue. The replacement (also returned due to skewed cantilever) also had metal threads. The third iteration, ten months after the first, had holes drilled into the wood and no nuts.

My second Master Sig (really the fourth) that was shaved down to fit a Tri-Planar arm also had threaded holes in the wood with no metal. I was told by the US distributor (at the time) that the metal inserts were no longer used because they wouldn't stay in - apparently what I experienced was not a one-off. I was also told to be very careful tightening the cartridge bolts because the soft wood could split.

 

[Kcin]

My first Master Signature (which was returned due to suspension defects) had metal screw threads. One of the embedded "nuts" just fell out. There was nothing holding them to the wood except a little bit of glue. The replacement (also returned due to skewed cantilever) also had metal threads. The third iteration, ten months after the first, had holes drilled into the wood and no nuts.

My second Master Sig (really the fourth) that was shaved down to fit a Tri-Planar arm also had threaded holes in the wood with no metal. I was told by the US distributor (at the time) that the metal inserts were no longer used because they wouldn't stay in - apparently what I experienced was not a one-off. I was also told to be very careful tightening the cartridge bolts because the soft wood could split.

How is it acceptable to encounter these production difficulties in such a product? I get they are all hand made- but then all cartridges are hand made at this level.

As to repair or adjustment- I had questions about my Atlas - Lyra took it in looked at it and gave it a clean bill of health and placated me with great customer service. I think many high end cartridge companies will offer good after sale sale services - so I don't necessarily buy in to the Vdh advantage here at all.

BTW many such Vdh experiences I have heard of here locally as well maybe coincidence - maybe not?

This is not an anomaly you report. It seems consistent that the Vdh can be inconsistent sample to sample more so than other brands . I will forgoe some of the excitement of this brand for a more stable approach. I can respect Mr. Vdh accomplishments however, this hobby is maddening enough without all these reported concerns. IMO. YMMV.

 

[bazelio]

My Opus1 arrived flawless. And I don't mean visually. This cartridge measured -30dB and 0 degrees phase in both channels after simply leveling the headshell with my precision Starrett level. And I've never seen AM's VTA distortion (dialed in via zenith as well as VTA adjustments) this low and this balanced across channels. But numbers aside, Opus 1 takes the crown for best sound thus far in my system, stripping Red Sparrow of its title. Quite honestly, I'm close to buying a second to have as a spare!

 

[Audiophile Bill]

How is it acceptable to encounter these production difficulties in such a product? I get they are all hand made- but then all cartridges are hand made at this level.

As to repair or adjustment- I had questions about my Atlas - Lyra took it in looked at it and gave it a clean bill of health and placated me with great customer service. I think many high end cartridge companies will offer good after sale sale services - so I don't necessarily buy in to the Vdh advantage here at all.

BTW many such Vdh experiences I have heard of here locally as well maybe coincidence - maybe not?

This is not an anomaly you report. It seems consistent that the Vdh can be inconsistent sample to sample more so than other brands . I will forgoe some of the excitement of this brand for a more stable approach. I can respect Mr. Vdh accomplishments however, this hobby is maddening enough without all these reported concerns. IMO. YMMV.

The MS sample I heard was totally awful but again I assume it was a QC issue. The Colibri XGW I had here had a small bend in the cantilever. I think many people are aware of this sample to sample variability. I agree it makes buying one a lottery - you have seen loads of people on here sending them back and forth even multiple times.

 

[Vienna]

My first Master Signature (which was returned due to suspension defects) had metal screw threads. One of the embedded "nuts" just fell out. There was nothing holding them to the wood except a little bit of glue. The replacement (also returned due to skewed cantilever) also had metal threads. The third iteration, ten months after the first, had holes drilled into the wood and no nuts.

My second Master Sig (really the fourth) that was shaved down to fit a Tri-Planar arm also had threaded holes in the wood with no metal. I was told by the US distributor (at the time) that the metal inserts were no longer used because they wouldn't stay in - apparently what I experienced was not a one-off. I was also told to be very careful tightening the cartridge bolts because the soft wood could split.

My GC had bigger serious issues and I know at least one more case with even worse quality problems..
The way I get it, it’s like winning lottery to get a good GC, plus begging polite letters to have, my paid cartridge , made correctly are not for me .

 

[bazelio]

A local audio friend in the mountains has found a great match in his system with two VdH carts. Tang has seen great success with the MS. But many more stories to the contrary are out there. My own VdH experience leads me to the following recommendation...unless you yourself can first inspect, mount, measure, and listen to it in your system prior to remittance then avoid. Else, only work with a dealer such as ddk who interfaces directly with AJ and will weed out the problems before they ever get to you. And above all, have patience.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

random walk sound and technical quality at this price level is totally unacceptable and a joke that you put up with IMNSHO
I´d totally freak out if I had to ship cart back and forth like some people have.....

 

[ddk]

I'm not dismissing anyone's experience with Colibris or excusing QC failures but it's not as if every or even majority of cartridges are defective either. Van den Hul is unique niche specialized cartridge maker and one needs a certain level of experience to understand what they're buying and how to set them up properly but IME when you get it right they deliver the goods beyond any other cartridge I've heard.

GC isn't a Master Sig on steroids it's a new design with new sonic aesthetic and focus the two models are different enough that one can prefer one over the other. I realize that lack of clear information makes selection difficult for people and even for dealers and adding to the confusion are custom spec'd samples like @Tango 's 5R and his older Master Sigs and upgraded Master Sigs like @adyc 's or @PeterA 's which are all different. I happen to like @adyc 's upgraded CG very much, it's different from the original donor Master Sig and also different from production CG's, pretty unique actually.

There certainly are several less quirky high performing cartridges out there but IMO they leave something behind when compared to Colibris, it's up to the individual to decide if the effort is worth the bother or not.

david

 

[PeterA]

I have one new “5R” Grand Cru. This replaced a Master Signature which I sent in for it’s 200 hour fine-tuning. I had requested an upgrade but got a new cartridge instead.

I also have an upgraded Grand Cru from my other Master Signature. This had the output lowered from 1.1 mV down to 0.75.

these two cartridges look different. One has metal inserts for the screw holes and one does not. They both have the newest and latest damper. One is broken in and the other isn’t so I have not compared them yet directly to each other on the same arm.

Despite the reports of quality control issues sample to sample variation and the overall nature of such a handbuilt cartridge, they remain the best cartridges I have heard in my system. I will say it did take me a long time to understand how to properly set up these cartridges in my two arms. And I suspect someone with more experience could do an even better job.

I do not dispute any of the negative reports I have read from others who did not like either the quality or the sonics.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

people not being competent to set up a special race breed cart?!
what a lot of BS......a properly designed product wouldn´t need foggy excuses like this for uneven qc and performance
one needs to source a exquisite sounding specimen and stay away from the rest
who else than a dealer of maybe a reviewer would be in that position.....
for most buyers, the best to avoid the brand all together

 

[infinitely baffled]

Nothing good ever came easy.
If you want solid, consistent performance, buy mass market.
If you want the best, buy boutique.
*Warning*
it may mean dealing with human beings

 

[spiritofmusic]

What are you talking about, Gavin?
Try saying what you just said to Peter Lederman of Soundsmith. You think he's any more mass market than VDH? He's pretty boutique, and QC is exemplary.

 

[ddk]

people not being competent to set up a special race breed cart?!
what a lot of BS......a properly designed product wouldn´t need foggy excuses like this for uneven qc and performance
one needs to source a exquisite sounding specimen and stay away from the rest
who else than a dealer of maybe a reviewer would be in that position.....
for most buyers, the best to avoid the brand all together

Do you believe that everyone with a turntable is competent setting up cartridges and exact setup doesn't matter?

I'm not making foggy or any type of excuses just explaining what you're getting when you buy a vdH cartridge! You're certainly welcome to stick to your comfort zone and buy a "safe" cartridge like the Denon 103 but you can't tell others not to buy the vdH! There are many here with very positive experience with Colibris, unlike the Denon they're just not for everyone.

david