I think the rephrasing of the question is also problematic. How does one respond if he does not agree with the premise embedded in the question?
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Videos: Cessaro Zeta, Dava, turntables, Alieno, Thrax phono
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I think the rephrasing of the question is also problematic. How does one respond if he does not agree with the premise embedded in the question?
Your understanding is not correct. I focus also on dynamics and getting the realistic force from instruments but I don’t pursue it for reproduction of large ensembles because I think frankly it can’t be done. If my system can convey the power, weight and dynamics…while preserving the micro end of the scale of a solo piano or string quartet, which I think CAN be done, then I feel I have succeeded.
He has already responded to the sloppily written version of my question, so your question is moot.
OK, Ron. Here’s a question for you then. You have heard audioquattr’s system live and, presumably, through Bonzo’s latest videos.
Do you think the system with the multi-way Cessaro Zeta speakers achieves a suspension of disbelief and the full breadth and power and authority of a symphony orchestra?
Thinking only about what I heard at audioquattr's system in person in the room (and not about videos) . . .
No -- because to say "yes" would mean that I have suspended disbelief and that I believe I am listening to a real, live orchestra. "Suspension of disbelief" is a concept, and is understood on a scale of greater suspension disbelief or lesser suspension of disbelief.
So let me answer a slightly different question.
audioquattr's room + system Is one of my five favorite rooms + systems, so this necessarily means that audioquattr's room + system is one of the five greatest suspensions of disbelief I have experienced.
Ron's Favorite Private Rooms + Systems of All Time
My visit the last three days to Marty confirms yet again – – although no confirmation was required – – that one's listening room is by far the most important component of the sound and the realism one achieves in this hobby. It is not possible to rate one's favorite room without considering the...
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Thinking only about what I heard at audioquattr's system in person in the room (and not about videos) . . .
No -- because to say "yes" would mean that I have suspended disbelief and that I believe I am listening to a real, live orchestra. "Suspension of disbelief" is a concept, and is understood on a scale of greater suspension disbelief or lesser suspension of disbelief.
So let me answer a slightly different question.
audioquattr's room + system Is one of my five favorite rooms + systems, so this necessarily means that audioquattr's room + system is one of the five greatest suspensions of disbelief I have experienced.
Ron's Favorite Private Rooms + Systems of All Time
My visit the last three days to Marty confirms yet again – – although no confirmation was required – – that one's listening room is by far the most important component of the sound and the realism one achieves in this hobby. It is not possible to rate one's favorite room without considering the...
OK, I think I understand you. This system +room achieves some degree of suspension of disbelief for you and is in your top five, but it does not achieve the full breath and power and authority of a symphony Orchestra. That’s exactly why I commented that your rephrased question remains problematic because the premise embedded in the question does not hold for this system. The premise, in your phrasing of the question, implies that it does.
I agree with Brad that systems exist that can get you extremely close to sounding convincing and believable on large scale orchestral music. They are extremely rare.
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Maybe I misunderstanding Brad, but I understand him to be saying that he seeks convincing and believable sound primarily on solo instruments and small ensembles, because it is too difficult to achieve that level of believability on large scale orchestral music?
Yes, I think that’s what he’s saying. I believe he thinks it’s easier to achieve on smaller scale stuff, and in very rare cases, you can get quite close on large scale stuff, but it’s impossible to go all the way.
That reproduction is not nor can be reality seems self evident. I don't expect my system to deliver the sound and scale of a symphonic orchestra in a concert hall. If what I hear is evocative of a symphonic orchestra in terms of tone, timing, dynamics, vivacity, and a sense of an orchestra in a hall, I am pleased and can feel a high enthusiasm for great music. For me, natural sound falls between replication and believable resemblance in degrees.
As I've said before, I don't use the 'suspension of disbelief' language as a measurement. I do not recall being in a state where I believe I'm listening to a performer or live orchestra laid out before me as I hear in the concert hall when .actually I am listening to my stereo. I do experience (sometimes) what I call limbic level listening where I bypass cerebral cortex analytics and let the music have its way with me.
As I've said before, I don't use the 'suspension of disbelief' language as a measurement. I do not recall being in a state where I believe I'm listening to a performer or live orchestra laid out before me as I hear in the concert hall when .actually I am listening to my stereo. I do experience (sometimes) what I call limbic level listening where I bypass cerebral cortex analytics and let the music have its way with me.
+1
Fair enough!
I have often used this term. Now that I know that Karen Sumner likes this concept as well, I'm sticking with it.
I agree that we can never achieve complete "suspension of disbelief." That's why it's a lesser or greater spectrum concept.
Nicely stated. I understand this.
Is it safe to say, Ron, that the videos are NOT representative of what you heard from this Cessaro system live?Thinking only about what I heard at audioquattr's system in person in the room (and not about videos) . . .
No -- because to say "yes" would mean that I have suspended disbelief and that I believe I am listening to a real, live orchestra. "Suspension of disbelief" is a concept, and is understood on a scale of greater suspension disbelief or lesser suspension of disbelief.
So let me answer a slightly different question.
audioquattr's room + system Is one of my five favorite rooms + systems, so this necessarily means that audioquattr's room + system is one of the five greatest suspensions of disbelief I have experienced.
Ron's Favorite Private Rooms + Systems of All Time
My visit the last three days to Marty confirms yet again – – although no confirmation was required – – that one's listening room is by far the most important component of the sound and the realism one achieves in this hobby. It is not possible to rate one's favorite room without considering the...
Yes Peter, you have paraphrased my thoughts correctly. I would only be a bit more precise in that I think it is possible to achieve a high degree of suspension of disbelief with smaller scale pieces of music and that, with only 2 or 3 exceptions, it is not possible to achieve a high degree of suspension of disbelief with large music works and even then never as convincing as what can be achieved with smaller music pieces.
There’s been a lot of discussion about dynamics, but the hard truth is that microphones can’t capture the full dynamic range. They’re inherently limited—either picking up sounds that are too low in level or clipping when it’s too loud. If you’ve ever heard the proximity effect, it’s when speaking too close to a microphone creates a booming or “exploding” sound from the speakers. Many of us have experienced this with PA systems. To prevent this, compressors and limiters are used during recording, which inevitably reduces the dynamic range. Sometimes, especially with older recordings, you can still hear this “explosion” effect due to the absence of a compressor/limiter—like Lee Morgan’s trumpet on Moanin’, some Elvis Presley ballads, or Dream with Dean. That’s why older artists were so skilled at mic handling, constantly adjusting their distance from it.
The bottom line is that the dynamics in a recording never fully match the real experience.
But that’s not necessarily a problem because home audio systems aren’t designed to replicate the exact sound of a live concert or instruments. They’re meant to resemble the real experience, not recreate it. It’s like tending a bonsai tree—no one wants a full-sized tree in their living room, just like no one wants a full orchestra, grand piano, drum kit, or trumpet blaring in their home. The actual sound levels from real instruments are often too overwhelming for a domestic setting. Our perception of loudness depends on context. For example, if you’ve ever been target shooting, the sound at the range might be loud but expected, so it doesn’t startle you. However, hearing a gunshot outside the range is a different story—it’s jarring. Similarly, we want peace in our homes, and the level of loudness we can comfortably handle at home is much lower than in a concert hall.
So, it’s both impossible and unnecessary to replicate the full dynamic range or exact sound of an orchestra in a home audio setup. It just needs to feel the same—that’s all, in my opinion.
P.S. Don’t call me deaf—I always wear strong hearing protection while shooting!
The bottom line is that the dynamics in a recording never fully match the real experience.
But that’s not necessarily a problem because home audio systems aren’t designed to replicate the exact sound of a live concert or instruments. They’re meant to resemble the real experience, not recreate it. It’s like tending a bonsai tree—no one wants a full-sized tree in their living room, just like no one wants a full orchestra, grand piano, drum kit, or trumpet blaring in their home. The actual sound levels from real instruments are often too overwhelming for a domestic setting. Our perception of loudness depends on context. For example, if you’ve ever been target shooting, the sound at the range might be loud but expected, so it doesn’t startle you. However, hearing a gunshot outside the range is a different story—it’s jarring. Similarly, we want peace in our homes, and the level of loudness we can comfortably handle at home is much lower than in a concert hall.
So, it’s both impossible and unnecessary to replicate the full dynamic range or exact sound of an orchestra in a home audio setup. It just needs to feel the same—that’s all, in my opinion.
P.S. Don’t call me deaf—I always wear strong hearing protection while shooting!
I like this opinion, and I completely agree with it based on my own experience listening to various systems and what they can achieve. I just do not like the phrase "suspension of disbelief". I find it clumsy.
There’s been a lot of discussion about dynamics, but the hard truth is that microphones can’t capture the full dynamic range. They’re inherently limited—either picking up sounds that are too low in level or clipping when it’s too loud. If you’ve ever heard the proximity effect, it’s when speaking too close to a microphone creates a booming or “exploding” sound from the speakers. Many of us have experienced this with PA systems. To prevent this, compressors and limiters are used during recording, which inevitably reduces the dynamic range. Sometimes, especially with older recordings, you can still hear this “explosion” effect due to the absence of a compressor/limiter—like Lee Morgan’s trumpet on Moanin’, some Elvis Presley ballads, or Dream with Dean. That’s why older artists were so skilled at mic handling, constantly adjusting their distance from it.
The bottom line is that the dynamics in a recording never fully match the real experience.
But that’s not necessarily a problem because home audio systems aren’t designed to replicate the exact sound of a live concert or instruments. They’re meant to resemble the real experience, not recreate it. It’s like tending a bonsai tree—no one wants a full-sized tree in their living room, just like no one wants a full orchestra, grand piano, drum kit, or trumpet blaring in their home. The actual sound levels from real instruments are often too overwhelming for a domestic setting. Our perception of loudness depends on context. For example, if you’ve ever been target shooting, the sound at the range might be loud but expected, so it doesn’t startle you. However, hearing a gunshot outside the range is a different story—it’s jarring. Similarly, we want peace in our homes, and the level of loudness we can comfortably handle at home is much lower than in a concert hall.
So, it’s both impossible and unnecessary to replicate the full dynamic range or exact sound of an orchestra in a home audio setup. It just needs to feel the same—that’s all, in my opinion.
P.S. Don’t call me deaf—I always wear strong hearing protection while shooting!
I find it amazing when forum geniuses explain that domestic audio is not like real sound in person. They should be awarded the “deep audio insight” trophy.
Very important for audiophiles! These are not particularly compatible hobbies!I always wear strong hearing protection while shooting!
Ron, Why do you think that Bonzo posted them then? I have not seen Bonzo or audioquattr say they do not represent the sound of the system. I only post videos when I feel they adequately sound similar enough to what I hear from the listening seat and keep them as a record to document changes.
I'm a little baffled about the rhetorical nature of this post.
I know you are extremely well aware that Kedar and I -- and that you and I -- have diametrically opposing views on the usefulness of the video recording of audio systems.
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