Of course you do, Peter. If nothing else, you are to be commended for your consistency.
Videos: Cessaro Zeta, Dava, turntables, Alieno, Thrax phono
- Thread starter bonzo75
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Perhaps In the main due to the considerations of some respondents to the materials utilised in the construction of two of the horns example videos , and by extension whether said materials may have contributed to a certain audio signature that they prefered , Viz :
christensenleif@msn.com … “ I think Cessaro have a « plastic » signature on both vids”
@PeterA … “ I prefer the wooden speakers to the Zeta on this music where the violin sounds more like a wooden instrument, less synthetic, more natural tone.”
And since materials and their potential sound signatures were introduced into the discussion a fairly ‘natural’ expansion into one of the other more common type of material (metal alloy) traditionally implemented in horn construction , together with an example , which was offered up for consideration.
Similarly we might consider whether the material utilised in the Pnoe (a type of glass fibre) contributes to a different sound signature of a horn moulded out of a different material e.g hORNS Universum
Yes, piano on Altec bogs down, thick, distorted, orchestra somewhat as well. I agree the top end strings and woods were a wee tad thin with Cessaro, thought that might be the recording. I thought weight was okay -- listening back-to-back the evaluation becomes relative to each other. Cessaro was more realistic. He should give catalog numbers.
I had not heard that effect on vocals from your system videos before. I suppose others might comment.
No worries, Peter. It was probably just another figment of your imagination.
BTW, don't quit your day job.
No worries, Peter. It was probably just another figment of your imagination.
BTW, don't quit your day job.
You should hear the analog version.
When I listen to this YouTube example of a piano playing, it really does sound like an actual piano playing it (most systems/speakers, including mine, do not quite get there). I'm not impressed over dynamic range, bass extension or being able to play frequencies above 20K Hz (whether or not I can hear it is another issue), however it only takes a second or two in order to hear/recognise the "realness" in timbre/tone (whatever) that makes these speakers/system stand out, even on YouTube vids.
I didn’t hear it that way, but both systems sound excellent. Pay attention to the violins—the Cessaro setup presents them better IMHO. They’re sharper at the climaxes and during the highest notes, while on the Pnoe system, the violins are more subdued, almost closer to a viola. More importantly, across a broader spectrum, the Pnoe sound seems more midrange-focused, adding a touch of warmth (around 600-800Hz) to everything. That said, the Cessaro setup isn’t flawless either; it can come across as a bit sharp. Ultimately, I think it all boils down to personal preference. For me, the Pnoe sound feels like sitting in the 10th row, while the Cessaro places you right in the conductor’s spot. Maybe that’s because I’m not a fan of single-driver speakers. Again, these observations are based on the videos, and actual listening could completely change my impressions, as it has in the past. I might be quite wrong.
Here are the videos—give them another listen.
Had another listen, yes I can hear the midrange-focus of the Pnoe, and I can hear what you are saying about the violins being a bit deep? more like violas. I also hear the Cessaro setup sounding a bit sharp (harshness/sharpness affects me like fingernails up a chalk board). I still think that the Pnoe breathes a bit easier, I suspect because there is no crossover so fewer components in the way.
I am certainly no expert but only think/believe that in the terms of music reproduction equipment, less is more. I think that the more tracks, more microphones, more mixing and editing, more components in the amplification stage (especially capacitors and semi-conductors), the less real will be the result.
Mono recordings often sound better than their stereo versions, why? I think it is because of less stuff in the process. Consider the signal is picked up in a single microphone, sent through one simple triode valve amplifier, recorded D2D onto the lacquer, that played back through a good mono cartridge, step up transformers (instead of active MC amplification in a pre-amp), into a low capacitance phono stage (like Ypsilon), there through a flea-watt triode amplifier with attenuators into a single-driver Pnoe speaker(s).
I am probably wrong, but it seems intuitive to me.
Mono recordings often sound better than their stereo versions, why? I think it is because of less stuff in the process. Consider the signal is picked up in a single microphone, sent through one simple triode valve amplifier, recorded D2D onto the lacquer, that played back through a good mono cartridge, step up transformers (instead of active MC amplification in a pre-amp), into a low capacitance phono stage (like Ypsilon), there through a flea-watt triode amplifier with attenuators into a single-driver Pnoe speaker(s).
I am probably wrong, but it seems intuitive to me.
THis is one of the things I like about my speakers is that they are basically augmented single driver speakers and so balance between what I hear in the Cessaro and the Pnoe systems. More mid-centric than the Cessaro but somewhat less so than the Pnoe... a little less mid warmth than the Pnoe and somewhat more than the Cessaro. THere is essentially no crossover except for a cap on the tweeter. My DIY speakers and my previous speakers were both full-range 2-way back loaded horns/TQWTs...again pretty simple in principle.
It’s amazing the speakers you have made are on par with Pnoe and Cessaro or better. Please post a video of Beethoven 7th
Ps: pnoe is far from a mid centric set up. One of the lest phrases bill and I can relate to in any form of pnoe set up
Do you feel that your relatively modestly sized DIY two-way loudspeakers can convey the full breadth and power and authority of a symphony orchestra as well as the large and multi-driver Cessaro Zeta? Or in your comparisons are you focusing on other specific sonic attributes?
No I don’t think ANY speaker can properly convey a symphony orchestra…mine included.
Will the Cessaro do a better job? Maybe but it depends on the setup and system or it might just make a loud hot mess.
I consider it a significant victory if smaller ensembles and things like solo piano can sound realistic both micro and macro dynamics and tonally. Also the ability to resolve very soft sounds even in the presence of loud sounds is a key to realism.
So, I focus on what I think is actually technically feasible…and I don’t consider realistic symphony playback at home feasible with any system I have ever heard…but a couple of them got pretty good…but were prohibitively expensive for nearly everyone.
I suggest you get a better recording system then because what you say it sounds like live vs. What is heard on the video doesn’t match.
I would say they are on par with them for smaller music ensembles. I don’t have the space for a big system, so not trying to compete on bombast.
I will go hear Vinkingur Olafsson tomorrow night at Tonhalle performing Brahms piano concerto…neither of these systems can capture that acoustic power. Not to mention even your most favorite orchestral recordings are quite heavily compressed by necessity. I was given an uncompressed recording of Prokofiev’s Romeo and Juliet by the recording’s sound engineer…it sounds very different from the recordings you use and all other big work’s recordings I have heard. The Pnoe would be crying for its mama in this recording at realistic levels…it would just become a congested mess. Soft passages would come through very nicely though I think…something high sensitivity single drivers excel at, Cessaro would fare better on the big swings but its lack of coherence would hurt it through the soft stuff. You would probably have to go unrealistically loud for it to really work.
The only two systems I know that could make a decent stab at big works was the LV/Kondo system from many years ago and the Aries Cerat system of 2019. The Acapella Hyperion might have some chance as well.
Thank you. Yes, of course -- I agree that my question was sloppily written.
I should have asked:
Do you feel that your relatively modestly sized DIY two-way loudspeakers can achieve the level of suspension of disbelief of the full breadth and power and authority of a symphony orchestra that is achieved by the large and multi-driver Cessaro Zeta?
If I understand you correctly, basically you do focus on other sonic attributes, which are more important to realism and suspension of disbelief for you.
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