Visit to Henk van der Hoeven -- Apogee Acoustics Re-builder/Restorer

[spiritofmusic]

The VZM.com review of the Sanders Magtech monos driving MBL101Ds, the reviewers run in with the neighbour from Hell, and hilarious consequences, make this one entertaining read
And he listens to real music to boot
The amp sounds right up my street and may be the left field choice I'm looking for

 

[bonzo75]

If you read his Analysis Omega review, he says he found the speaker to be more musically satisfying though costing $138,000 less than the Magicos he auditioned.

+1

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well Ked, that's always handy
Esp if you're short of the odd $138k!
Gone onto the ML Owners Forum, it seems one stat owner after another is extolling the Magtechs

Ked, if the Magtechs can drive Logan's and Maggies, and obv Sanders panels, all with ease, having tons in reserve no matter what the volume, all the while maintaining tonal integrity, is there anything about the big Apogees, esp the power sponge bass ribbons, that would mean the Magtechs wouldn't be appropriate?
The only drawback I can see us that they are Class AB, not A

 

[bonzo75]

If I had that money I would go with the apogee/omega and put part of the 138k to a tape deck, tapes, and David's thorens ref.

The rest to the amps.

Sanders - nothing stopping them from driving apogee, I don't know how they sound. I would go with class A first.

If you want class AB for a temp stop, Gamut D200 sells at like 2.5k and you can resell it with minimal loss.

Seriously, you won't know until you try a few, you need to get a decent one with good resale value to have as a common point of reference during dems.

There is a class A MSB stereo 200 for sale less than 5k. Should be resellable. Was used to drive Summit Xs

 

[LL21]

Setting aside [often costly] pure Class A Behemoths like Gryphon, Boulder, etc...How about the Bryston 28B SST2 Monos? From one of their dealers in CA (David Weinhart)

"Why isn't the 28BSST² rated at 4 Ohms?

The 28BSST²’s power is not officially rated at 4 Ohms because its internal breaker is rated at 12 Amperes or 80% of the carrying capacity of the power cord, as required by law. This works out to 1440 Watts from the wall plug and the 28BSST² will deliver over 2000 Watts continuous into 4 Ohms. For musical purposes, the average power to the speakers would be far less than that level, so the breaker will not open.

The current into 8 Ohms measures 15.8 Amperes peak, or a bit over 11 Amps continuous at 1000 Watts. Of course the 28BSST² is actually capable of more than 1000 Watts into 8 Ohms. At clipping,
around 1350 Watts the current is 18.5 Amps peak, 13 Amps continuous. Into 4 Ohms those figures would be higher, close to twice as high, especially under musical conditions. That is never a problem because the
28BSST² is capable of over 100 Amperes peak and 32 Amperes continuous when the breaker is bypassed under lab conditions."

 

[Zero000]

Usually amplifiers change the damping factor modifying the feedback value - sometimes this change also causes changes in general sound quality, distortion and frequency response.

That is pretty insightful, as I was thinking given Henk's explanation the change in SQ with the DF switch may be due to other factors.

I think I have just read the best Duetta Sig review I have ever seen - Audio Magazine from December 1989. It covers some of the problems exceptionally well as it tries to correlate measurements with perceived performance. It also hits on some of the problems I have discussed with Jon the refurbisher.

Because this review is truthful it isn't that flattering. The truth hardly ever is

In some areas I think I know more than is revealed by the review (e.g. MRT movement). In other areas it is a real education. Fantastic stuff.

 

[Zero000]

Seriously wish that Audio mag had covered other Apogee models. If anyone knows that they did please post.

 

[Zero000]

Justin, other than the physical demands the Apogees, and esp their bass ribbons, put on amps (precluding the vast majority of tubes, if the Apogee Owners Forum Boards are anything to go by), are Apogees reasonably amp agnostic?
By that I mean Class D COULD work as well as Class A? Or is A/AB always likely to be superior as is often the case with other speakers?
These Taiko Kodos Class D Monod were pretty impressive in Munich driving the fussy G1s, the engineer is the guy who perfected the SGM server, and I believe he is seriously talented
And at c£5k per 700W/ch set of monos, £10k gets you your bi amped requirements

The trouble with reading all this stuff about amps and Apogees is that you are building up images in your mind of things you don't understand, Marc.

So you are, with all due respect, getting lost in a world of subjective opinions and technical explanations you don't fully understand.

Though I have some insight, probably more than most with regards to Duettas I'd hope, I know this because I'm the same, and so are most people. Nobody knows everything and these are complex topics with a huge amount of variables.

Just plug some amps in and decide.

I will say that I have noticed and almost insatiable desire for power when driving Apogees from American users. It's the American way... Have you not noticed the scale of some of the amps that country has come out with? Madness.... LOL.

 

[spiritofmusic]

For me, the 30 day no quibble guarantee on the Magtechs make them a no brainer re trial. Maybe lose a few hundred £/$ on shipping costs, but not as much as buying amps outright
Divas/Magtech monos for bass ribbons/Magtech stereo for mids/treble ribbons/Pass XVR1 prob equates to £35-40k budget

I guess my journey will start when I hear Henk's Divas in the next 2-3 months

 

[Lissnr]

Spirit, A properly planned journey starts by reviewing the roadmaps which is essentially what you're doing now. Next step is to listen to as many [Apogee] systems as you can with main emphasis on Divas but a secondary "educational awareness" listening review of Duettas would be a 'No - harm - done' sidebar...Just keep that in mind too.
As an aside from the Sanders, which as I mentioned, points to being the designers' choice in SS amps for hard to push Apogees... There is one more amp ( albeit much more 'normal/ less bred specifically for the Apogee job' ) that had caught my attention though unlike the Sanders I have not heard personally... It's a tube input stage/ FET output which tube-lover-me was understandably drawn to and also appeals as a real $$$$ saver: the AVA FET Valve 600R. It's "only" 300 wpc into 8 but I think it doubles into 4 and stays strong thereafter too. AVA stands for "Audio by Frank Van Alstine" and I know it has its own users club with a dedicated following. I believe he just designed a pair of even higher powered monos for slightly more than a pair of the 600R's would cost you... At U.S. $3200 for the 600R ( stereo amp) it may be another fit for your left field contestant applicants... Good luck. Have fun at Henk'z and wherever you roam to listen.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh, I'm very sure Justin
The demo at Henk will be all
If I get the same goosebumps reaction that I did at Keith's with his Cessaro Liszts/Bakoon Class A, and with the Koda K10 preamp trial in my system, then I will be compelled to own Divas
If I get a good feeling, but just a variation on my current benchmark, I'll pass
Obviously if I hate them...

I guess I can always worry about amps once the Divas are standing in front of me in my space LOL

 

[spiritofmusic]

Lissnr, good advice as ever
AVA sounds very interesting, affordable, and again risk free sale or return
My plan is to hear Divas at Henk's, at my Nevada/Utah road trip next year at Rich's along with the new Zus
Maybe even Justin will re invite me (hint hint) after I rudely blew him out. Twice. Sorry Justin
And Duettas at UK Jon Oakey's
That should do it
Checking out AVA a little later...

 

[Zero000]

Maybe even Justin will re invite me (hint hint) after I rudely blew him out. Twice. Sorry Justin

Nope. You're permanently banned!

 

[spiritofmusic]

Hmm Justin
You REALLY don't want me to stop by and tell you how great your Duettas are compared to the Omegas I'll have heard at Peters?

 

[Zero000]

Omegas are better...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Justin, are you toying with me?
Given the choice of your Duettas and Omegas at the same price, you would plump for the Omegas?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Checking out the Van Alstine AVA website
Lissnr, some very interesting gear
Despite my reticence to dive into Apogees territory without having amps options worked out ahead of time, maybe I should view Apogees as a canvas/blank slate upon which my system needs to be measured/reflected
I have my pre existing Hovland HP200 200W stereo SS amp, my NAT SE2SE 60W/ch SETs, ability to demo NAT Transmitter 120W tetrodes, and sale/return Van Alstines Vfet/hybrids and Sanders Magtech Class ABs
This should give me food for thought on a whole host of Divas bi amping a-b demos
This is cerainly never how I've conducted my upgrading in the past...

 

[cjfrbw]

Kip from the Apogee site set up a pair of rebuilt Apogee Full Range in a dedicated listening room a couple of years ago:

"Driving the MRTW sections of the Full Ranges are a pair of NAT SE2se SET monoblocks. Oh my goodness--easily the best sound I have ever had here!"

"I'm so pleased that is appears to be MORE than enough. But what flabbergasts me are the little things it presents, from tonality to texture to spacial cues. I listen in disbelief most of the time. Who knew an amplifier topology could make that much difference!"

I have no idea why this picture is upside down. Moderator?


Kip

It has been a few years, but I could give you his email by PM if you thought Southern California would be on your audio itinerary.View attachment 28259

 

[spiritofmusic]

CJ, that is good news indeed
I am very much attached to my NATs
Indeed I've insisted that I'm buried with them
Now, if the SE2SEs can drive the mids and treble ribbons, and simething like AVA Van Alsine vfet hybrid 600W monos can take care of bass ribbons duties, and I can rely on First Watt F4 for crossover duties, then my budget becomes even more manageable, close to what's needed for the flagship Zus, my more predictable choice
Please do pass his details to me
Give me 24 hours to clear my inbox
Thanx in advance

 

[cjfrbw]

Sure, I'll send you his email, but it is a few years ago, but I can give you his name. I think he had an identity on this board as well.

I wouldn't let anybody else's audiophilia nervosa or fascist objectivism talk you down from tubes with Apogees. Let your ears decide that one. These boards are great for information, but you will find a lot of aggression in attempts to substitute somebody else's tastes and preferences for your tastes and preferences.

If I were selling rebuilt Apogees, I would probably recommend high current SS, too, just because it is the safest bet. As a listener, however, it pays to experiment to get what you want out of them.