Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

[Mike Lavigne]

Thank you, Mike. I know you know them both well. That was exactly my impression/instinct, but it is nice to know from someone who actually knows.

i do not know them as well as others, but know them a little, and pay close attention to feedback from users. and think a lot about how they might be to optimize. which is my deal.

 

[Tam Lin]

I found the bass is quite underwhelming.

I think that is a result of the temporal and harmonic discontinuity in the harmonic series that shapes each tone that is less than the Space Horn crossover frequency, nominally, 100Hz. The DSP delays the lower partials and disconnects them from the upper partials that define the tone's leading edge. That weakens the impact of the bass, which causes the Trio user to increase the gain of the bass amp. That, doesn't fix the problem but makes it worse by increasing the harmonic discontinuity. All frequencies above Space Horn crossover should be delayed to match the DSP delay. But, you have to do it without additional a/d and d/a because that would muddy the signal.

 

[LL21]

i do not know them as well as others, but know them a little, and pay close attention to feedback from users. and think a lot about how they might be to optimize. which is my deal.

Fair enough.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Please enjoy my interview with Todd and his amazing system!

And please subscribe to the WhatsBestForum YouTube channel!

 

[caesar]

I want to believe ( although I don't really have any knowledge) that you seek the sound of music. ...

Yes... but deeper than that... I am actually looking for chills, goosebumps, deepest connections possible with the music...

I am looking for the state of flow in most things I do...

and it's probably safe to say that many people do also... keep asking them why 5 or 10 times... otherwise, it's just sounds...

 

[caesar]

Please enjoy my interview with Todd and his amazing system!

And please subscribe to the WhatsBestForum YouTube channel!

Wow Ron! Great job! I don't do audio videos, maybe 3 a year if something really interests me, because they are usually a huge waste of time ....

But you ask REALLY Intelligent questions!

And in this case you got really intelligent answers from Sbnx!

 

[caesar]

I dont think AG are necessarily to fault here. From the moment you hear the AG Trio there is an exacting quality to the sound. It is so effortless, details, nuances and all manner of subtleties appear in the music, and it dawns on you how careful one needs to be with a system so capable of reflecting subtle set up changes.

As a result, when in a store, where people are probably asking for gear switches a few times a day...'putting it all back to the millimeter' cannot be very easy. And in that store, when I mentioned it, the person was gracious enough to agree, simply saying the speakers are a big challenge to setup because their sound is so capable of reflecting micro-nuances.

While often times people refer to a speaker with this exacting requirement of setup as 'ruthlessly revealing'. Honestly, I cannot say whether the AG Trio G3 is 'ruthless' in its revelatory power...but I can say, that this sense that you are hearing everything effortless and that it is therefore exceptionally demanding of paying attention to all the details of system and setup...is immediate (at least that was one of my first instinctive reactions.) I genuinely like these speakers a lot, and I could imagine SBNX having create a sublime sound with them because he is so exacting.

Hi LL,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply! I can assure you that Avantgarde is an electron microscope. (As is MBL).

Do I see you switching to horns down the line?

 

[caesar]

I recently traveled to hear a very well sorted AG Trio G3 system, complete with 3 Spacehorns per side. The room size and treatments were appropriate, the electronics, including Itron and three other amplifiers of different topologies, were all reference level, countless hours had been spent on professional setup. We listened for many hours and used each of the 4 amps.

The AG Trio G3 system is the speaker equivalent of a modern F1 car- absolutely everything matters and must be correct or you won’t win the race.

Not everyone wants an F1 car.

Dear Sir,
Which non-itron amps did you hear, if you don't mind? thanks

 

[LL21]

Hi LL,
Thank you for the thoughtful reply! I can assure you that Avantgarde is an electron microscope. (As is MBL).

Do I see you switching to horns down the line?

Thanks, Caesar. I have always been agnostic as to horns v panels or cones. While I acknowledge 'characteristics' of the designs, I have found great panels and others that did not inspire. Same for cones and horns.

My sense has been that horns always had such great potential when I heard them, but the balance more often seemed very off. Great alacrity but not much tonal depth, or a disjointed presentation...and yes of course sometimes 'shouty'.

In the case of the AG Trios, they were categorically the first that has finally gotten me to say 'that was special'. I still found the treble that one day harder than I preferred...something I would definitely want to investigate unequivocally before making any commitment.

That said, YES, I see that it has the potential to be the only speaker I have heard that (for me) tops my current favorite speaker, the Rockport Arrakis...but I accept that even if I became confident, the AG Trio G3 could create a rounded, pure and supple treble, I would still want to be sure I could get repeated and committed setup with them because a solo effort on that is not something I would want to take the risk on when even professionals admit they find them very very demanding of the set up.

Interestingly, given that both Mike and J Heilbrun seem to think high power and AG Trio G3 is not inappropriate (and in case of JH, have heard he likes his Dartzeel 468 monos with them)...I do wonder if the Robert Kodas could be a perfect match with them. Only one way to tell, and that is definitely not today! Perhaps someday. And if the match was indeed exceptional, then YES, I could see it being a next and final move up.

 

[LL21]

i do not know them as well as others, but know them a little, and pay close attention to feedback from users. and think a lot about how they might be to optimize. which is my deal.

What is your current thinking about AG Trio G3 with Kondo SET-like amplification vs iTron? Personally:

- I could see an absolutely electronic-microscope-level-of-attention-to-detail level of set up with an iTron working perfectly and revealing elements of the music literally buried in the recording that practically no one has ever heard before. (I am not saying it would happen...only that I suppose I can see that it could based on my sense of AG and the various descriptions of the iTron particularly as it is designed by AG)

- I could also see that in almost any other practical setting, that residual risk of hardness in the sound...largely treble...which I heard myself (driven by Emm Labs MTRX Ref Monos) is categorically ameliorated with a breath-of-life Kondo-like SET. I like the video from Ultimate Audio with the Ongaku, and I have a very, very high regard for Miguel there. He knows his stuff.

I naturally wonder if the ultimate match(es) might be:

- Robert Koda K160 Ref monos (described by Alan as the best and most powerful single-ended triode tubed amp ever made...even as he naturally confirm it is SS Class A, not a tube amp)
- Or your very own Dartzeel 468 Ref monos!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

What is your current thinking about AG Trio G3 with Kondo SET-like amplification vs iTron? Personally:

- I could see an absolutely electronic-microscope-level-of-attention-to-detail level of set up with an iTron working perfectly and revealing elements of the music literally buried in the recording that practically no one has ever heard before. (I am not saying it would happen...only that I suppose I can see that it could based on my sense of AG and the various descriptions of the iTron particularly as it is designed by AG)

i'm maybe not the right person to answer as i don't have enough first hand knowledge, but i do have an opinion based on all the feedback i've got and my brief personal exposure. my 2 cents would be based on the a target of being able to do justice to large scale very dynamic music. OTOH if i was not going 'there'......then more modest powered and tempered SET's like Kondo Ongaku would be in play. or any number of flea powered SET's. they all would work with understandable limits. that would not be my direction.

so how big is the room? and what music are you expecting to optimize?

the i-tron would have no limits for scale and space. but probably very refined, natural and grainless/liquid and quiet solid state like darTZeel or maybe a tube/sold state hybrid amp (Robert Koda) with enough control and sexiness might work. or like a mid-powered Berning ZOTL tube amp might also work well. Kondo Kagura's too. any of those type amps would not limit musical energy. are they all low enough noise? i don't personally know. these are just my casual musings of the types of choices that would work for that feeling of control for large music.

for sure dart 468's will work.

some of these amp choices would really benefit from multiple Spacehorns and even added subwoofers. hard to know how far you would need to go. the more Spacehorns the more complete the bass would be. the main amps are only above 100 hz. the actual room would matter alot. weight and authority has to come from somewhere. which you need for a balanced presentation as your highs are so extended.

 

[LL21]

i'm maybe not the right person to answer as i don't have enough first hand knowledge, but i do have an opinion based on all the feedback i've got and my brief personal exposure. my 2 cents would be based on the a target of being able to do justice to large scale very dynamic music. OTOH if i was not going 'there'......then more modest powered and tempered SET's like Kondo Ongaku would be in play. or any number of flea powered SET's. they all would work with understandable limits. that would not be my direction.

so how big is the room? and what music are you expecting to optimize?

the i-tron would have no limits for scale and space. but probably very refined and quiet solid state like darTZeel or maybe a tube/sold state hybrid amp (Robert Koda) with enough control and sexiness might work. or like a mid-powered Berning ZOTL tube amp might also work well. Kondo Kagura's too. any of those type amps would not limit musical energy. are they all low enough noise? i don't personally know. these are just my casual musings of the types of choices that would work.

for sure dart 468's will work.

Interesting...at 107db efficiency, I would have thought 27 watts with Ongaku would fill quite a room. but yes, it depends on whether one is trying to sit front row in front of a 110-piece orchestra playing Mahler's 5th or not...and whether the room is a room or a more like a professional rehearsal room in size.

The Robert Kodas are actually pure Class A Solid State (so 235 watts into 4ohms and 150 into 8)...but the AG Trios are 19 ohms resistance. I have read SS amps tend to reduce power by nearly 40% as they go up by double in impedance from their rated. Whereas many tubes amps maintain or nearly maintain their power rating into higher ohm speakers.

 

[sbnx]

Hello Todd,

Do you think that detecting the sonic differences on the recordings with inverted polarity is directly related to the level of transparency and resolving power of the entire system? And do you think that with a sonic microscopic speaker like Avantgarde plus the sheer accuracy of the multi-amp mode (iTron) that controls each driver independently and directly without any passive filters, the sonic differences on reverced polarity recordings can be more discernible compared to systems with more complexity and less pure or with more forgiveness?

I'm curious to know if you felt this level of sonic differences on reverced polarity recordings like Dire straits and Metallica with your previous box speakers as well?

Hello,

Yes, I do believe that the higher the resolution of the system the more phase polarity is obvious. When I first started out I was oblivious to this even being a thing. Then there was a period where I couldn't really tell if I flipped the polarity and I thought it didn't matter at all. Then as my sytem got better and the setup got better and the noise floor got lower it became apparent that polarity was audible. Then with the Trios is it obvious.

Ron commented something like, if you didn't know or didn't flip it you would still think it sounds great. That is true. But when you select the correct polarity the sound is on another plane.

 

[Al M.]

Interesting...at 107db efficiency, I would have thought 27 watts with Ongaku would fill quite a room. but yes, it depends on whether one is trying to sit front row in front of a 110-piece orchestra playing Mahler's 5th or not...and whether the room is a room or a more like a professional rehearsal room in size.

At that kind of elevated speaker sensitivity normal rules about amplifier power don't apply. You are probably right about the 27 watts. That amplifier power on such a speaker should be able to fill a very large room with very dynamic large-scale orchestral music.

 

[godofwealth]

I have my Klipsch La Scalas up against the back wall. They do plenty of depth on the right recordings. Width of the soundstage is unparalleled in my experience of listening to high end speakers for over 35+ years. Particularly jazz ensembles are often recorded in quasi mono, hard left and right. On the Scalas, these image well beyond the left and right speakers. I use a pair of large REL G1 Mk2 Gibraltars for extreme sub-bass (the G1s go down to 15 hz easily). I use only SET amps with the La Scalas. Solid state I find too bright! Even a class A First Watt J2 that I have doesn’t match what I get from a great SET.

But I have a large 6000+ cu ft space and the La Scalas are spaced widely apart — like 15 ft or so. You can see the tip of one of my La Scalas below. It’s very close to the back wall. But the sound just floats above and behind these huge 200 pound behemoths. With 105 dB efficiency, I barely need a few milliwatts to drive these. Currently I’m using a Cary 300B SE SET. IMHO, horns are made for SET amplifiers and vice versa. Anything else is a sacrilege.

 

[sbnx]

Think of AG Trio set up as a bulls eye you have to hit including room, signal path and sources. The margin’s for error are razor thin and unforgiving as it has no half way setting for information. Hit-able, but demanding.

Especially with the I-tron amplification.

An Arrakis grandly rewards perfect set-up but there are plenty of degrees of bliss on the path to it. It’s not blasting you on certain tracks when all is not perfect. Or the room is not just right.

Agree with this analogy. Although the other option is to miss the target completely. As I mentioned in one of my first videos, when I first put them in the room they were just setting on the tripod and very roughly positioned. The sound was very nice. It gave that warm blanket kind of sound I mentioned earlier. This would be like putting a Mercedes suspension on the formula 1 car. Not what I was going for but it might be just the right cup of tea for someone.

The Trios are very demanding. At 109dB efficiency noise comes through easily. I don't mean hum or hiss or such as that. I mean ground noise or electrical noise or cable noise or vibrational noise etc. The more I paid attention to every little thing the more I was rewarded. In that sense the Trio is the Audiophile's dream speaker. If you want to tweak it will show you how stuff sounds. Play with different footers, shelves, ground boxes, cables, fuses, etc and the speaker shows you what each one does to the sound.

I know you guys think I am crazy when I talk about tapping the speaker. But that is what we were doing. I posted a video of me using my finger to tap the 330 pound space horn. Each tap was audible and it took about 5 of those taps to alignt he plucked bass to the oboe. I don't know how far a 330 pound object moves with a single tap of the index finger but It was easy to hear. This also happens on box speakers but not quite to this level.

My advice to anyone who gets a pair of Trios - seek help. Someone who has worked with them before can really save you a lot of time. I will mention that the Duo GT is much, much easier to dial in. I believe the Mezzo will be just as easy if not easier than the Duo GT.

 

[thedudeabides]

Yes... but deeper than that... I am actually looking for chills, goosebumps, deepest connections possible with the music...

Agreed. Emotional connection with the music is the holy grail of this hobby. Period.

And that can be achieved, in many ways, without requiring large amounts of money.

 

[LL21]

I have my Klipsch La Scalas up against the back wall. They do plenty of depth on the right recordings. Width of the soundstage is unparalleled in my experience of listening to high end speakers for over 35+ years. Particularly jazz ensembles are often recorded in quasi mono, hard left and right. On the Scalas, these image well beyond the left and right speakers. I use a pair of large REL G1 Mk2 Gibraltars for extreme sub-bass (the G1s go down to 15 hz easily). I use only SET amps with the La Scalas. Solid state I find too bright! Even a class A First Watt J2 that I have doesn’t match what I get from a great SET.

But I have a large 6000+ cu ft space and the La Scalas are spaced widely apart — like 15 ft or so. You can see the tip of one of my La Scalas below. It’s very close to the back wall. But the sound just floats above and behind these huge 200 pound behemoths. With 105 dB efficiency, I barely need a few milliwatts to drive these. Currently I’m using a Cary 300B SE SET. IMHO, horns are made for SET amplifiers and vice versa. Anything else is a sacrilege.

View attachment 127418

Nice CJ GAT preamp underneath! As someone who has owned CJ preamps for 21+ consecutive years thru the CJ GAT 2, I have a great respect for them.

 

[LL21]

...I know you guys think I am crazy when I talk about tapping the speaker. But that is what we were doing. I posted a video of me using my finger to tap the 330 pound space horn. Each tap was audible and it took about 5 of those taps to alignt he plucked bass to the oboe. I don't know how far a 330 pound object moves with a single tap of the index finger but It was easy to hear....

my goodness...that demands a very very VERY careful setup

...I will mention that the Duo GT is much, much easier to dial in. I believe the Mezzo will be just as easy if not easier than the Duo GT.

I wonder how close the Mezzo plus spacehorns or plus custom subs would be to the AG Trios + space horns...

 

[Mike Lavigne]

At that kind of elevated speaker sensitivity normal rules about amplifier power don't apply. You are probably right about the 27 watts. That amplifier power on such a speaker should be able to fill a very large room with very dynamic large-scale orchestral music.

until you hear more power in direct compare. filling the room, and higher degrees of commanding the music, are different things. different levels of engagement. this is nothing i heard, just feedback from others who have heard it. there are no wrong answers as far as power, w/107db, only how much one expects.

especially considering the differences with the number of Spacehorns. a single Spacehorn and lowish power SET is a different thing musically compared to more power and multiple Spacehorns. both are legit, but go different places. and room size implications.

enough.....is rarely enough. too much is enough. just how i see things for my musical needs.