Vote today... Mitt Romney or Barack Obama

[jazdoc]

Medicare's administrative costs are about 3%; the private health insurance industry's administrative costs are just over 20%. I don't think the problem here is with Medicare.

With all due respect, you are comparing apples to oranges:

1. Medicare patients consume more health care than non-Medicare patient's, i.e. denominator of the administrative cost/spending ratio is significantly larger. If Medicare paid the actual costs of treating their patients, the denominator would increase further.

2. The GAO and CMS admit that 10-15% of Medicare spending is fraudulent. A large component of private insurance overhead goes to track down fraud and abuse. To wit:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/50543.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/b...d-victimizes-patients-and-taxpayers.html?_r=0

As an aside, I once went to a talk given by George Joseph who is the majority stockholder in Mercury General, a large California auto insurer. He said that their company believed that up to 50% of their claims were fraudulent, i.e. you get into a wreck and damage your car but claim that pre-existing damage to a bumper was a result of the current accident.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim: you are old enough to know that the pendulum swings both ways. Our way to the center is always by adjusting to the perceived extremes of the past.

Of course. And it got to where it is today from a Democratic party that had given to much to its own extremists. It swung to the right. It overshot. Now it's swinging back. It will probably overshoot again, that's the nature of the beast.

Tim

 

[DaveyF]

Frantz-



1) First I think all entitlements including Social Security and Medicare should be means tested.

And by whose means, jazzdoc?
What an outrageous statement.

 

[rbbert]

With all due respect, you are comparing apples to oranges:

1. Medicare patients consume more health care than non-Medicare patient's, i.e. denominator of the administrative cost/spending ratio is significantly larger. If Medicare paid the actual costs of treating their patients, the denominator would increase further.

2. The GAO and CMS admit that 10-15% of Medicare spending is fraudulent. A large component of private insurance overhead goes to track down fraud and abuse. To wit:

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/50543.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/12/b...d-victimizes-patients-and-taxpayers.html?_r=0

As an aside, I once went to a talk given by George Joseph who is the majority stockholder in Mercury General, a large California auto insurer. He said that their company believed that up to 50% of their claims were fraudulent, i.e. you get into a wreck and damage your car but claim that pre-existing damage to a bumper was a result of the current accident.

You seem to be making my point, while at the same time ignoring the amount of Medicare fraud that is discovered then reimbursed with penalties (and often criminal prosecution following.)

Really, the private insurance model in this country (and not just in health care), combined with what has become ridiculous common law in torts, is clearly a failure. I'm not sure that government intervention would be better, but despite rhetoric to the contrary it hasn't been tried in this country, and there is certainly suggestive evidence from the rest of the First World countries that it may have advantages at least in limited application.

 

[jazdoc]

And by whose means, jazzdoc?
What an outrageous statement.

What's outrageous?

 

[rbbert]

Of course. And it got to where it is today from a Democratic party that had given to much to its own extremists. It swung to the right. It overshot. Now it's swinging back. It will probably overshoot again, that's the nature of the beast.

Tim

Yup.

 

[jazdoc]

You seem to be making my point, while at the same time ignoring the amount of Medicare fraud that is discovered then reimbursed with penalties (and often criminal prosecution following.)

Unfortunately, the amount recovered amounts to 'breaking wind in a hurricane'.

http://www.healthaffairs.org/healthpolicybriefs/brief.php?brief_id=72
"In fiscal year 2011 the combined efforts by CMS, the Department of Justice, and HHS's Office of Inspector General resulted in criminal health care fraud charges against 1,430 defendants; 743 criminal convictions; 977 new investigations of civil health care fraud; and the recovery of $4.1 billion, the highest annual amount recovered in a single year, though still woefully short of the estimated annual loss."

 

[rbbert]

What's outrageous?

Means testing for Medicare, obviously. Social Security, perhaps less so except for the practical difficulties in implementation (and a whole new area for practicing fraud).

 

[rbbert]

Unfortunately, the amount recovered amounts to 'breaking wind in a hurricane'.

http://www.healthaffairs.org/healthpolicybriefs/brief.php?brief_id=72
"In fiscal year 2011 the combined efforts by CMS, the Department of Justice, and HHS's Office of Inspector General resulted in criminal health care fraud charges against 1,430 defendants; 743 criminal convictions; 977 new investigations of civil health care fraud; and the recovery of $4.1 billion, the highest annual amount recovered in a single year, though still woefully short of the estimated annual loss."

In addition to the fact that your arguments remain completely unconvincing, I have yet to read or hear anything from defenders of our current health care system that proposes any type of real solution. Mostly the proposals amount to "turning back the clock" to pre-Medicare days, conveniently ignoring the reasons for the establishment of Medicare in the first place, all of which are even more true today than they were in the '60's.

 

[egidius]

I've operated the heart/lung machine for open heart surgery for 32 years. With current tax rates, when I perform more than 2 operations per week, I make a net of $45-$50 per each extra case (professional fees) due to tax bracket applications. In contrast, the administrator of a local hospital reportedly claimed an estimated $12 million bonus for the second half of last year. Where do you think your health care costs are centered? How carefully do you think the accountants adjust the books before presenting information to auditors?

Lee

Reminds me of some stories of american orchestras, with counterwise movement of musicians and managment salaries..
egidius

 

[egidius]

I read this thread with growing consternation.
From a European viewpoint a universal health insurance seems an absolute necessity.
How you do it is really a rather big question, you will not be able to solve in a thread - and it seems outright ridiculous to blame Obama for its actual form, as the politicians seemed to have argued just like this thread with extreme examples which prove nothing and are utterly unhelpful to actually find a way.

Somebody even went so far as to say (quoted from memory, as i cannot find it anymore) "..the reason we lost" EXCUSE me, who is we? I am Swiss, and as far as the american vote concerns me, I have won ;-)

But I still wish us all well, as health care is just a unsolvable problem: Just lets stop growing old! But then again, isn't it Life beautiful?!

 

[treitz3]

Good afternoon, gentlemen. In the best interests of the forum, this thread will now be closed. It has served it's purpose and it is now time to move on.

Tom