What are home acoustic considerations for mini monitors? Does size matter?
- Thread starter caesar
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No, the room doesn't care if you use a small monitor or large speaker. Sound is sound and the physics of it decide how it modifies it. Now if the mini-monitor doesn't generate much bass, then the room impact will naturally be lower.
One of the benefits of small monitors is that their mid-woofer and tweeter are close in size (because mid-woofer is so small usually) and that usually means very good off-axis response.
One of the benefits of small monitors is that their mid-woofer and tweeter are close in size (because mid-woofer is so small usually) and that usually means very good off-axis response.
Amir, I fully agree with all of that. I have small monitors and subwoofer, and have had go to considerable lengths to get my room right, see pages 1 and 2 of my system thread (linked in signature), which shows pictures of my current set-up with ASC tube traps, Tri-panels and window plugs. I also have a sub trap for my subwoofer. Bass is excellent, see also comments by others on the thread, but only in the sweet spot; this becomes a problem with more than one person listening. I am thinking of ASC Isothermal traps to potentially remedy this in the future (and of course, bass in the sweet spot should become even better too):
http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/isothermal-tubetrap
Yet in the sweetspot the bass never really was a problem in my room; the mid- and high frequencies were. The acoustic room treatment helped so much to clean these up. Obviously, the problems in mid- and high frequencies would have existed also with just the small monitors, without the subwoofer.
Application of DSP remains an option, but I prefer to max out all the actually physical remedies before adding that on top of it all.
Yet not every room is the same. I have heard fantastic sounding systems in minimally treated rooms, it all depends.
Hi,
Sound pressure level at listening position is the sum of the levels of direct sound + levels of the various boundary reflections. When moving from a smaller room to a larger one while keeping the stereo triangle unchanged it's only the level of the side wall reflections that decreases a bit, but that doesn't have a big impact on the overall level, so in the larger room the minis should be capable of generating the same SPL as in the smaller room.
Klaus
Sound pressure level at listening position is the sum of the levels of direct sound + levels of the various boundary reflections. When moving from a smaller room to a larger one while keeping the stereo triangle unchanged it's only the level of the side wall reflections that decreases a bit, but that doesn't have a big impact on the overall level, so in the larger room the minis should be capable of generating the same SPL as in the smaller room.
Klaus
Sure it does. The wood joists of my 1790's house will crack, or surely struggle, to support the weight of a speaker like the mighty Magico Q7. One must really consider the whole picture. Once I started adding lolli columns under my Vibraplane/amps and very heavy rack full of components, the room acoustics changed because of the resonance of the floor. This would surely also be the case with speakers that weigh more than my 200 lb mini monitors. Just moving those columns around slightly changes the acoustics. YMMV.
Size of speakers includes weight, and it certainly does matter, IMO, IME, when considering room acoustics in some situations, and not just in the ways already mentioned.
The biggest problems are bass related .. which minis dont do much of at high levels .. also depends a huge amount at what levels you play..I listen very loud and thus room acoustics etc are vital , playing at low levels is a lot easier re acoustics
I would say a good "starting" formula is small bass triangular traps at trihedral corners (wall/wall/ceiling) , absorption and diffusion at first reflection points on side wall and the same on the ceiling. Low bass issues need DSP..traps need to be monsterous and specialised to work well at sub 100-80 hz freqs
I would say a good "starting" formula is small bass triangular traps at trihedral corners (wall/wall/ceiling) , absorption and diffusion at first reflection points on side wall and the same on the ceiling. Low bass issues need DSP..traps need to be monsterous and specialised to work well at sub 100-80 hz freqs
Yes, the OP did. I was addressing your response that the room does not care about the size of the speakers. I think it does. And acoustic considerations are effected in my room because of the tension on the suspended floor. As I wrote in my post to you, I notice acoustic changes because of the location of the columns that I placed under the floor to deal with the heavy loads of my equipment. The same could be said about thicknesses of floor joists and wall studs effecting the flex of the floor and walls. Jim Smith has commented on the construction materials of rooms. My walls happen to be plaster and lathe, not sheet rock which is more typical in modern construction. The greater frequency response and sound pressures of larger speaker systems effect the resonance of the floors and walls. This is in part a result of the speakers one chooses.
I am simply reporting my experience with the acoustics of my room based on the weight of my equipment, some of which is my speakers and how the support structure was altered to deal with my equipment and how that effected the acoustics of my room.
So, to the OP, I think size, specifically weight, does matter for room acoustics with mini monitors in some specific instances. If the floor requires additional support to deal with added loads, then how that additional support is addressed, MAY effect room acoustics, as it does in my room. And more specific to the OP, the larger the room, the bouncier the suspended floor, unless additional support measures are taken into consideration. Where and how many supports are used will effect the resonance of the floor and thus the acoustics of the room.
Pros:
Usually step response is good
Usually good polar response
Cons:
More likely a nasty floor bounce
No bass
Usually theres a port, which can make bass sound slow due to group delay around tuning frequency
Usually step response is good
Usually good polar response
Cons:
More likely a nasty floor bounce
No bass
Usually theres a port, which can make bass sound slow due to group delay around tuning frequency
No lower bass you mean. That's where a subwoofer is useful. My monitors don't have a port, and the bass from my monitor/sub combo is fast and punchy (see comments on my system thread, link signature). Just recently an audiophile who used to be a drummer was at my house, and he was very impressed with how Green Day et al. sounded.
dallasjustice, What do you mean by "No bass"? My mini monitors have an in-room response, as measured from my listening seat, of high 20s Hz. The plot is posted is in my virtual system thread. My mini monitors are sealed, i.e., they don't have a port. I have not noticed a nasty floor bounce. What does that sound like and what causes that?
Perhaps you should clarify the sense of "care" in this sentence. It seems to me it the sentence being interpreted in different senses.
You have a room mode at about 40hz and probably a few others as well. The above is a smoothed measurement for Acourate which is only designed to prep for DSP inversion. If you measured with REW and posted at 1/12 per octave smoothed results it would be much easier to see what's going on. It looks like both speakers show a cancellation at 300hz. That could be a floor bounce. I don't really know because I don't know about the dimensions of where you sit in relation to the woofer and the height of the woofer off the ground. The room modes help you out a little. But you are down about 15db at 20hz, 10db at 30hz.
Peter, I like monitors. I am just saying you ain't gonna get great bass from them. It's not possible. The good news is that it's almost impossible to get great bass from any 2CH system, no matter how gigantic the speakers.
You have a room mode at about 40hz and probably a few others as well. The above is a smoothed measurement for Acourate which is only designed to prep for DSP inversion. If you measured with REW and posted at 1/12 per octave smoothed results it would be much easier to see what's going on. It looks like both speakers show a cancellation at 300hz. That could be a floor bounce. I don't really know because I don't know about the dimensions of where you sit in relation to the woofer and the height of the woofer off the ground. The room modes help you out a little. But you are down about 15db at 20hz, 10db at 30hz.
Peter, I like monitors. I am just saying you ain't gonna get great bass from them. It's not possible. The good news is that it's almost impossible to get great bass from any 2CH system, no matter how gigantic the speakers.
dallasjustice, I was actually thinking of these plots. How would you interpret them? The one you selected was taken with a digital source and I think shows differences between channels while these two are with my analog source and channels are combined but show three different cartridge loading values. I use the blue trace. One at 1/6 and the other at 1/12.
Do you really not think one can get great bass from any 2CH system? I'm surprised by that statement, though it is a bit off topic.
Attachments
It all looks pretty much the same.
Unless one has a gigantic room, it's nearly impossible to get (what I would call) great bass with only two speakers. I am not claiming any great discovery or revelation with that statement. That's what I've discovered through trial and error myself. But, more importantly, folks like Toole and Geddes would say the exact same thing. Below about 100hz, the room totally dominates the bass clarity, definition and accuracy. The reason has to do with the length of the bass waves compared to the room. IOW, you are hearing the room below 100-200hz, not so much the speakers.
I think it's relevant to this thread, because I believe bass restricted speakers CAN be part of a very bass accurate system when coupled with strategically integrated subwoofers. Two-way monitor "cons" can almost all be overcome in this way. On the other side of the coin, the truly ridiculous sized 2CH speakers systems usually reflect a poor understand of room acoustics; eg. Bigger is Always Better. It's got to the point where I really think some speakers systems are designed simply for bragging rights. There's really no point to it.
I DO favor smaller R/L speakers in a multi-channel system. My R/L speakers are only good to about 30hz. But I get ruler flat bass to 15hz in my room (plus or minus 2db, 1/12 smoothing).
Michael.
I can have my own opinions about my system all day of course, but several other people who have heard it would agree with that statement.
As I always suspected. The larger a speaker the more pain it is to try to integrate it into the room, and the point about bragging rights rings true.
I think you need to qualify the 2 chan thing , you can get exceptional bass out of a 2 chan system , AT LISTENING POSITION... and to get that bass you might have to compromise the rest of the spectrum.
You will however not most likely have great bass at any other position in the room.. and the room nodes will dominate
Using a swarm of subs or distributed bass will do both , great bass at listening position and throughout the room as it smoothes bass response in the room which often frees one from the constraints of large full range speakers which might have a great mid / hf positioning that does not correspond to the best position for great bass. Ie , less compromise
That is the bugbear with big full rangers.. you are really trying to integrate 4 speakers , 2 x bass bins and 2x the rest without the freedom to separate them.
You will however not most likely have great bass at any other position in the room.. and the room nodes will dominate
Using a swarm of subs or distributed bass will do both , great bass at listening position and throughout the room as it smoothes bass response in the room which often frees one from the constraints of large full range speakers which might have a great mid / hf positioning that does not correspond to the best position for great bass. Ie , less compromise
That is the bugbear with big full rangers.. you are really trying to integrate 4 speakers , 2 x bass bins and 2x the rest without the freedom to separate them.
Not all the swarms of subs are similar - the Geddes approach for example optimizes bass for a single position. And I have no reason to make be belief that distributed subs produces similar subjective sound quality to that of systems using two subs in stereo.
I have read a lot of theory about multisub's. Great for home theater and MCH surely. But I have not read about any SOTA high-end stereo system using distributed subs with great results. Perhaps I have not looked enough or their owners are not persuasive and hyperbolic enough for me ... Please educate me if you know about them.
Disclaimer - I do not care about listening rock at stadium levels.
I fully disagree. I have been fortunate to listen to very big speakers in appropriate setups. They manage to recreate experiences no small speaker can create.
Surely we must adequate a speaker to our particular room - not everyone owns 20x30 feet rooms. And we have excellent and poorly designed big speakers - I am addressing the many good ones!
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