Depends on what is your reference for "big". Dallasjustice was talking about "truly ridiculous sized" speakers. And I often see enormous speakers in rooms that are relatively way too small for the speaker size.
What are home acoustic considerations for mini monitors? Does size matter?
- Thread starter caesar
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Depends on what is your reference for "big". Dallasjustice was talking about "truly ridiculous sized" speakers. And I often see enormous speakers in rooms that are relatively way too small for the speaker size.
Al, I agree with you. It seems that the most common mistake in the hobby is for someone to try and shoe horn too large a speaker into their room.
I think the allure of the big speaker and the way it impresses with its stature, is so strong, that many people are unwilling to give up on the large speaker in order to actually have a greater synergy with their room.
One other thing that was related to me recently by a very knowledgeable a'phile was the fact that small room can still sound great IF it has enough "volume". This set me thinking, as one of the savings in my small room is the high vault ceiling, which clearly increases the 'volume' that the speaker sees.
I think the allure of the big speaker and the way it impresses with its stature, is so strong, that many people are unwilling to give up on the large speaker in order to actually have a greater synergy with their room.
One other thing that was related to me recently by a very knowledgeable a'phile was the fact that small room can still sound great IF it has enough "volume". This set me thinking, as one of the savings in my small room is the high vault ceiling, which clearly increases the 'volume' that the speaker sees.
IME large speakers can work well ,as long as you can sit far enough away to allow the drivers to integrate, two small standpoints and subs will have the same frequency range.
Keith.
Keith.
I started out with 2 SVS subs with my G1s , then to prove the concept of the swarm or distributed bass , went with 4 cheapy Yamahas and have now ended up with 4 SVS sb13 ultras .. they run in parallel with my G1's whch run full range.
The G1s themselves are not bass slouches , but with the 4 subs they approach a different level..
Wherever you measure in the room , the bass does not vary by more than 2-3db , prior to that , a 15db swing was not uncommon , I also had a vertical mode issue they solved...
is it better to have small two way speakers with subs or a fuller range three way speaker with subs? I was told by a speaker rep that most two ways don't go deep enough to be well integrated with a pair of subs and that a three way speaker will sound more coherent with subs. I suppose a lot depends on how high the subs are crossed over.
Marty , I placed 1 in a corner, 1 behind me and 2 just plonked down where I had open space on sidewalls , 2 are elevated off the floor at differing heights , with the 4 subs and the 4 side firing 11" woofers of the speakers , the bass transducers are more or less randomly placed.
I use a Meridian 568.2 processor to set all 4 subs as to crossover , delays , level etc so can do all 4 simultaneously
1 sub is run out of phase.
I can turn all subs off with a button press or turn the mains off the same way.
The overall effect of using the subs is not really more or deeper bass, but much tighter articulate bass , and more weirdly a much better sense of the ambience of the recordings , a more spacious and defined soundstage..without them , the music tends to "collapse"
If you just play the subs , most folk are amazed at just how low a level they are playing at..the SVS sb13's are total overkill .. they maybe playing at 1/10th their ability .. The Yamahas would have done just fine.. but they dont go as low as the SVS's , and no where near as prestigious
Considering I dont low pass my mains , my notion is that bigger speakers benefit more with multiple subs when using the subs this way..
However I recently had some kef ls50's I used with 2 SVS subs where I did high pass the mains at 90hz and got excellent results..I would have kept the setup , but the ls50's just did not go loud enough for me and the room.
I have always used some form of DSP to integrate my subs.. mostly offboard stuff rather than the controls within the subs.
I think subs should at least be in pairs.. single subs seem to be a harder act...
I would post some pictures , but am in Ireland for a wedding , 6000 miles away from my system.
I use a Meridian 568.2 processor to set all 4 subs as to crossover , delays , level etc so can do all 4 simultaneously
1 sub is run out of phase.
I can turn all subs off with a button press or turn the mains off the same way.
The overall effect of using the subs is not really more or deeper bass, but much tighter articulate bass , and more weirdly a much better sense of the ambience of the recordings , a more spacious and defined soundstage..without them , the music tends to "collapse"
If you just play the subs , most folk are amazed at just how low a level they are playing at..the SVS sb13's are total overkill .. they maybe playing at 1/10th their ability .. The Yamahas would have done just fine.. but they dont go as low as the SVS's , and no where near as prestigious
Considering I dont low pass my mains , my notion is that bigger speakers benefit more with multiple subs when using the subs this way..
However I recently had some kef ls50's I used with 2 SVS subs where I did high pass the mains at 90hz and got excellent results..I would have kept the setup , but the ls50's just did not go loud enough for me and the room.
I have always used some form of DSP to integrate my subs.. mostly offboard stuff rather than the controls within the subs.
I think subs should at least be in pairs.. single subs seem to be a harder act...
I would post some pictures , but am in Ireland for a wedding , 6000 miles away from my system.
IMO it's quite hard to design a two way, as the mid-woofer has to cover a very wide frequency range. Also most manufacturers do not make a two way of the same quality as their three ways.
80Hz crossover is fine in my experience in most situations. Sometimes it's worth going a little lower depending on the room measurements and characteristics of the main speakers and subwoofers as well as what slope you are using for the crossover between the two.
I would agree that it's hard to design a BIG 2-way. Smaller mid/bass drivers handle upper mids, up to the point of crossover to most tweeters, much better than bigger ones (I think the sweet spot is around 5 - 6"), and they disperse broader, so it's easier to get smooth off-axis response. And if you cross over at 80hz, or even 60, good small mid/bass drivers will integrate very well with subs as well. I don't think the size of the room matters as much as how far from the speakers you sit, and how loud you listen.
Why is there an issue with speaker size?? Given the same placement the same room modes will be excited as long as the frequency response is similar in that range. As long as you are far enough away for the drivers to integrate what other issues are there??
Rob
Exactly! The question was:
Like Amir said, physics doesn't care whether the sound comes from a small or a big loudspeaker. The only issue that does "go away" for small speakers in larger rooms are the lowest room modes which will be below the operating range of the speakers.
Klaus
+1
but ...
PeterA introduced a new variable . That of the load brought in by the speakers weight. In my case It has never bothered. I have always been on concrete floor and the difference of weight could not affect much the floor but come to think of it what about a wooden floor? On a beam ... It seems to me that the load would change the transmission and resonance characteristics... Wouldn't that matter in the final sound?
Only if the floor resonated enough at a high enough amplitude to become audible.+1
but ...
PeterA introduced a new variable . That of the load brought in by the speakers weight. In my case It has never bothered. I have always been on concrete floor and the difference of weight could not affect much the floor but come to think of it what about a wooden floor? On a beam ... It seems to me that the load would change the transmission and resonance characteristics... Wouldn't that matter in the final sound?
Keith.
Since the opening question was about mini-monitors I don't quite see the relevance of that variable!
Transmission is another issue altogether and not relevant to what happens inside the room. I would think that heavy speakers may change the resonance characteristics of a floor but have no idea of the acoustical output of such a floor, but since a flexing/vibrating boundaries may have a damping action, in particular in the bass, I can imagine that heavy speakers may have an effect in that respect. If that were the case I think that it would depend where the floor flexes most and where with respect to thoses point the speakers are located.
Klaus
Though this is tangental to the OP, it may not have the same relevance. But my mini monitors weigh close to 200 lbs each. My mono blocks on ballasted Vibraplanes weigh about 400 lbs per side, so that is close to 600 lbs per side on my very old wood suspended floor. I have noticed the resonances even though the speakers only go down to about 30 Hz. Changing the position of the lolli columns under the floor definitely effects the sonic signature of the room. So this is not size per se, but weight, in my experience, it can matter in certain circumstances.
Simply calling your speakers minis does not make them minis, given their lower 3 dB cutoff at 41 Hz. Your Magico is a 2-way, and so is the JBL M2, would you call it a mini?
Depth and width of the cabinet of my speakers are about the same as of your Magico, and I can set the lower cutoff to 80 Hz, but you probably wouldn't call them minis for one second?
Klaus
That would depend on your preferred listening distance and your preferred listening SPL. If small two ways (no more than an 6" or 8" woofer per side) can get you to your spl at your distance at the level you like particularly in the midbass then you're golden. If you are feeling like you aren't quite getting there because distortion from excess excursion and coil heat is creeping into the picture then you'll likely need something that literally pushes more air. MOst people I know, myself included have gone to large format speakers not necessarily to play much louder but rather to have a presentation with more ease (less distortion for you fellow propeller heads). The occasional rowdy peak is just gravy really.
Simply calling your speakers minis does not make them minis, given their lower 3 dB cutoff at 41 Hz. Your Magico is a 2-way, and so is the JBL M2, would you call it a mini?
Depth and width of the cabinet of my speakers are about the same as of your Magico, and I can set the lower cutoff to 80 Hz, but you probably wouldn't call them minis for one second?
Klaus
Thank you Klaus. How about if I now start referring to them as "stand mounted 2-way monitors"? It does not appear as either of your examples would fit that description.
Your first example looks as though it has a very large woofer and it appears to be floor standing. I can't really tell, but perhaps that woofer is 10-12". Mine is only 6", I think. Your second example looks like a 3-way speaker and one that is intended to be mounted on a stand. Again, it has a bigger woofer than mine and mine are 2-ways. So, your two examples seem to be quite different from my speakers.
I would not call the JBL M2 a mini. Nor would I call the second example a mini. But, I would call my speakers minis because of their driver sizes and because they are on a stand. You don't have to agree. Is this just semantics, are are we talking about a specific speaker category with defined specs? They are heavy though and have a good bit of extension for two small drivers and when they were introduced eleven years ago, they did seem to reinvigorate or bring some new attention to the category.
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