What do you think of this video

What do you think of this video. And this is not directed to those who think every mobile phone video is trash, thanks. Please listen to the end for the brass and the woodwinds

 

Mani, I think you need to get a second NT4 so you can record in stereo. I'm listening to Blues In The Basement as I type this. The bass is killer. When the horns come in they don't sound nasal to me, my complaint is that the soundstage is too narrow.

 

Mani, I think you need to get a second NT4 so you can record in stereo.

It's actually a stereo mic, but yes, there's zero soundstage coming across on the recordings - perhaps the mic is designed for more near-field recording? No point in buying another mic though - I suspect everyone's pretty sick of my recordings by now .

I'm listening to Blues In The Basement as I type this. The bass is killer.

Thanks. What's particularly nice is that in stock form, this is the Anima's weak point.

Mani.

 

So, you've sorted that biamping project you were talking about at my visit?

 

Did you take a listen to these?

Scheherazade:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PNOOtZ3DaVzxbzlA0VsmXO9gifidsjaw/view?usp=sharing

Blues in the Bassment:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14383qKD4CHj_9P39whgLr1cFHonQHswd/view?usp=sharing

Too Damn Hot:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QLHcjDR0L5BTFQGMoLmqUBzdxGxKgkzw/view?usp=sharing

One of the useful things about recording your system in this way is that you can compare the recording with the original file (using headphones preferably) to determine exactly what your system is adding/taking away. There are a lot of differences between my recordings and the original files, but I'm not hearing any added nasality on the brass. Maybe we're just more senstiive to different things?

Mani.

The brass on Blues in the Bassment doesn't seem nasal indeed. I wonder though about the reverb-y sound in all those files, and the bare wood floor in your room that might be related to it....

 

It's the Rode NT4 stereo mic. In many ways it's much better than Ked's mic: much lower noise floor (something that I think is critical for good sound); much more extended top end; finer detail. What it isn't capturing correctly though is the bottom end - taut and tuneful, but not as extended as it is in reality. This has an impact on tonality.

The main reason for posting the two files was to address the criticism that some people had when viewing/listening to Ked's video:







There is no "blurring" or "nasality" on the Rode recording.

It's a shame that I can't seem to capture the sound more accurately. It's certainly the best sound I've achieved in 40 years of this obsession wonderful hobby. I don't tinker. I don't want for anything. I just listen to music .

Mani.

Very nice minimalist looking and excellent sounding system you have there, Mani.

I'm reaching but I'm gonna' go out on a limb here. Regarding the "nasal" sound ddk and Al mention, I may know what they're talking about. First, only one of the 3 pieces has vocals, yet the "nasal" sound they think they hear seems to be across all 3 pieces, so it's not just vocals.

A nasal-like sound is easily reproduced if we cup our hands over our faces and then speak into the cupped hands. This I think is a nasal-like sound.

I could not detect any nasal-like sound from your recordings but I think it's not too uncommon for some to misconstrue a nasal-like sound with a playback presentation that is exhibiting a nice dose but still very limited amount of ambient info from well-engineered recordings.

This is no slight against your playback system. To the best of my knowledge, ambient info is the lowest of low level detail and the first to remain inaudible from a raised noise floor for which every last playback system suffers.

People think different things regarding "noise floors". To clarify, a cumulative raised noise floor is determined by the culmination of audible but especially inaudible distortions induced into our playback systems. The noise floor determines how much the percentage of music info read from the recording and processed will remain audible at the speaker. That music info below the noise floor remains inaudible at the speaker while that which is above the noise floor will remain audible at the speaker. Though the percentage that remains audible at the speaker will suffer a bit because it's lacking the audibility of the entire note, etc and the system can sound unbalanced, shouty, and otherwise distorted. Not saying your system.

That said, everybody suffers from a much raised noise floor to one good degree or another and as such many systems lack reproducing much ambient info. Your playback system seems to provide more ambient info than many but still fairly limited.

Since your playback system sounds better than many but not 100% convincingly live sounding, it just so happens to reside in a state where the ambient info remaining audible is unusual to some so they may inappropriately label this nasal-like.

Anyway, that's my guess and I'm confident others would be more than happy to correct me if I'm wrong. FWIW, I think your system sounds quite musical.

 

So, you've sorted that biamping project you were talking about at my visit?

Yes, exactly.

Mani.

 

The brass on Blues in the Bassment doesn't seem nasal indeed. I wonder though about the reverb-y sound in all those files, and the bare wood floor in your room that might be related to it....

The "reverby-y sound" of my room is very much a conscious choice. I prefer a lively over a dead sound.

I have no room treatments whatsoever. No rugs. The only damping comes from the single sofa in the room, at the listening position. I do have a whole wall of LPs on the back wall behind me. If I take all of these out of the room, the sound becomes totally unlistenable. So they're my room treatment .

All the inevitable room modes (peaks and troughs) are dealt with in DSP, giving a pretty flat in-room response.

Mani.

 

Very nice minimalist looking and excellent sounding system you have there, Mani.

I'm reaching but I'm gonna' go out on a limb here. Regarding the "nasal" sound ddk and Al mention, I may know what they're talking about. First, only one of the 3 pieces has vocals, yet the "nasal" sound they think they hear seems to be across all 3 pieces, so it's not just vocals.

A nasal-like sound is easily reproduced if we cup our hands over our faces and then speak into the cupped hands. This I think is a nasal-like sound.

I could not detect any nasal-like sound from your recordings but I think it's not too uncommon for some to misconstrue a nasal-like sound with a playback presentation that is exhibiting a nice dose but still very limited amount of ambient info from well-engineered recordings.

This is no slight against your playback system. To the best of my knowledge, ambient info is the lowest of low level detail and the first to remain inaudible from a raised noise floor for which every last playback system suffers.

People think different things regarding "noise floors". To clarify, a cumulative raised noise floor is determined by the culmination of audible but especially inaudible distortions induced into our playback systems. The noise floor determines how much the percentage of music info read from the recording and processed will remain audible at the speaker. That music info below the noise floor remains inaudible at the speaker while that which is above the noise floor will remain audible at the speaker. Though the percentage that remains audible at the speaker will suffer a bit because it's lacking the audibility of the entire note, etc and the system can sound unbalanced, shouty, and otherwise distorted. Not saying your system.

That said, everybody suffers from a much raised noise floor to one good degree or another and as such many systems lack reproducing much ambient info. Your playback system seems to provide more ambient info than many but still fairly limited.

Since your playback system sounds better than many but not 100% convincingly live sounding, it just so happens to reside in a state where the ambient info remaining audible is unusual to some so they may inappropriately label this nasal-like.

Anyway, that's my guess and I'm confident others would be more than happy to correct me if I'm wrong. FWIW, I think your system sounds quite musical.

Now that's an interesting hypothesis. I can see how that would work.

That said, everybody suffers from a much raised noise floor to one good degree or another and as such many systems lack reproducing much ambient info. Your playback system seems to provide more ambient info than many but still fairly limited.

I'd like to explore this.

I have no analogue attenuation anywhere in my chain (volume is controlled digitally, at 64 bits.). So, when the system is on, it remains at full gain all the time.

My mid horns are 109dB/w@1m. You can place your ear at the throat of the horn, and you will hear nothing. Not even a bit of hiss. Nothing. You press play and the music errupts from total silence. (Hopefully you've moved your ear away from the throat of the horn beforehand .)

So... in this sort of situation, what would you do to improve the ambient info coming through?

Mani.

 

Now that's an interesting hypothesis. I can see how that would work.



I'd like to explore this.

Hopefully, we'd all like to explore this. But I appreciate your open-mindedness.

I have no analogue attenuation anywhere in my chain (volume is controlled digitally, at 64 bits.). So, when the system is on, it remains at full gain all the time.

My mid horns are 109dB/w@1m. You can place your ear at the throat of the horn, and you will hear nothing. Not even a bit of hiss. Nothing. You press play and the music errupts from total silence. (Hopefully you've moved your ear away from the throat of the horn beforehand .)

Glad to hear that you hear nothing from your drivers up close. That's always a good sign.

So... in this sort of situation, what would you do to improve the ambient info coming through?

Mani.

Regardless of the "situation" the biiggest problem is always universal, i.e. a given playback system's raised noise floor, and of course the remedy is equally universal i.e. the attempt to dramatically lower a given playback system's raised noise floor. Assuming my definition of a noise floor is accurate, there's no reason to pursue improving ambient info specifically. Instead the goal is to lower a given system's noise floor. When this is pursued successfully, improvements apply equally across the spectrum for all sonic characteristics, including more ambient info. Our individual systems, listening skills, and preferences will make it seem like some characteristics are improved more than others but that actually should not be the case because then we're implying distortions / noise floors discriminate between characteristics and that should be impossible. But we can circle back to that.

I'd be very curious to hear the same 3 tracks with the DSP disabled. Any chance we could hear that? DSP can do funky things here and there and it's not always good. I think it could be really edifying to hear what it might sound like without DSP. My suspicion is a lack of DSP is a better starting point with a cleaner slate - even if DSP provides some benfits. It's just a hunch but I suspect your system might sound even more natural / musical without DSP (warts and all). But it is just a hunch. Besides, just invoking DSP implies invoking more distortions since more signal processing hardware implies more distortions and more distortions (especially inaudible ones) will raise noise floors, right? Besides, from your playback system you seem to be a minimalist which is very important from a performance perspective.

 

So I got a lot of video comments offline before I uploaded it here. Tang's video insight was the highest and pretty accurate. Following are some of the comments, since those guys had PMed me before they seem to have not responded here

Tang: This sounds very very good Ked. The dynamic and jump factor is a 10 and come effortlessly at the right time. The tone is very neutral maybe a tad more vivid would fit very well to my liking but no flaw in tone. Instrument placement and scale is also exceptional. My only skeptic is it sound a bit too clean too well organized. If it is more organic meaning the texture is more raw and less clean it would to me sound even more natural. Anyway I think this is one of the better video you sent. The software that was played might make me hear it like that too.

It depends on the mastering. I got my XRCD of that recording yesterday and it's pretty sensational. More organic and raw, and lots of weight to the tone; much better than a regular CD (worst) and a DSD-remastered CD layer of an SACD (considerably better than regular CD) that I heard last weekend on my system.

I'm not sure how this, I suppose hi-res, streamed version in the video would compare to the XRCD. In any case, that XRCD is now one of the best orchestral CDs that I have, sound wise.

Not all XRCD is equal though. The regular CD of Count Basie's 88th Street album, for example (available for 10 bucks or so from Amazon) is miles better than the XRCD of that same album, which just plain sucks in comparison. In fact, the regular CD of that album is phenomenal, in absolute terms. So XRCD is not a guarantee, but in the case of the Reiner Scheherazade and some other recordings it lives up to its promise.

 

It depends on the mastering. I got my XRCD of that recording yesterday and it's pretty sensational. More organic and raw, and lots of weight to the tone; much better than a regular CD (worst) and a DSD-remastered CD layer of an SACD (considerably better than regular CD) that I heard last weekend on my system.

I'm not sure how this, I suppose hi-res, streamed version in the video would compare to the XRCD. In any case, that XRCD is now one of the best orchestral CDs that I have, sound wise.

Not all XRCD is equal though. The regular CD of Count Basie's 88th Street album, for example (available for 10 bucks or so from Amazon) is miles better than the XRCD of that same album, which just plain sucks in comparison. In fact, the regular CD of that album is phenomenal, in absolute terms. So XRCD is not a guarantee, but in the case of the Reiner Scheherazade and some other recordings it lives up to its promise.

Hi Al,

I did mentioned that from Mani's Scheherazade, I would like it even more if the tone is a little more vivid. And I speculated that if the front end and software were different the sound of the system could jump another level. I used the word "vivid" but my meaning was indeed instrument differentiation or distinction. My experience with Tidal digital is it always has certain degree of whitish or pastel or matte tone spreading through out the scene that some might perceive as neutral. For me this tone could cause the loss of vivid distinction of instrument and more degree of homogeneity. Reiner Scheherazade and Haitink Bruckner 7 are great recording for instrument differentiation when play with decent front end and vinyls. Instruments just pop from different location distinctively in sound scene. I am not saying digital cannot do this. I just never heard a Tidal could do this. I had a modest digital front before. It did not do well enough to pass my level of reference. You seem to have a really good setup of digital and much much experience with it, can you please correct me if I am wrong about generalizing Tidal as having less instrument differentiation and a better digital software could do a much better job on this regard.

Kind regards,
Tang

 

Hi Al,

I did mentioned that from Mani's Scheherazade, I would like it even more if the tone is a little more vivid. And I speculated that if the front end and software were different the sound of the system could jump another level. I used the word "vivid" but my meaning was indeed instrument differentiation or distinction. My experience with Tidal digital is it always has certain degree of whitish or pastel or matte tone spreading through out the scene that some might perceive as neutral. For me this tone could cause the loss of vivid distinction of instrument and more degree of homogeneity. Reiner Scheherazade and Haitink Bruckner 7 are great recording for instrument differentiation when play with decent front end and vinyls. Instruments just pop from different location distinctively in sound scene. I am not saying digital cannot do this. I just never heard a Tidal could do this. I had a modest digital front before. It did not do well enough to pass my level of reference. You seem to have a really good setup of digital and much much experience with it, can you please correct me if I am wrong about generalizing Tidal as having less instrument differentiation and a better digital software could do a much better job on this regard.

Kind regards,
Tang

Hi Tango,

yes, differentiation of tone can be an issue with digital. As for Tidal, I don't have that much experience with it, and I certainly have not explored direct comparisons of the same recordings on Tidal with local files or physical CD, so I cannot really comment. I would also think that it depends on the quality with which Tidal streaming is implemented, as in general with computer audio.

That is also what I noticed with the XRCD, that there is much more color -- saturation and differentiation of color -- than in the other masterings that I have heard from the same Scheherazade recording.

At its best I think digital can sound as colorful as vinyl, but if something is not optimal in digital playback you indeed tend to get some flattening of color, up to the point of unpleasant grayness.

In my experience this tends to be a problem especially in computer audio (also from local files), even though well implemented computer audio can sound excellent.

Al

 

Now that many people in forum have the Bruckner 7 dtd you can compare mine to your own video using handphone to record this same recording from your system.

OK, here's mine...

Anima - Bruckner 7 Allegro moderato:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18LzGAbAvcY7iWbB4k88DTIyxJjtUHBiW/view?usp=sharing

Just to be clear, I don't have a turntable in my main room (I refuse to have one - too much clutter and fussing around for my liking). But I do have a couple of (very modest) turntables and an old beaten up ADC in a small 'studio' in my basement. I've ripped the D2D vinyl to a 16/44.1 file, played back the file on my main system (all digital) and recorded using a stereo mic (but don't expect to hear any soundstage at all!).

For those more into jazz, here's another vinyl rip (something you may have heard of) played back on my system:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12h6WpP1PrbMsBcH59fIeJ5RYzShkK1XJ/view?usp=sharing

And once again, you're listening to this setup:



Of course, any in situ recording will never match actually listening in the room yourself. But I think these files portray the general essence of the sound (apart from a lack of low end extension, of which there is far more in the room). With this proviso, I'd be happy for any feedback.

Mani.

 

Mani you can also add the take 5 in the rock and n drum videos thread. Jazz drums allowed

 

OK, here's mine...

Anima - Bruckner 7 Allegro moderato:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18LzGAbAvcY7iWbB4k88DTIyxJjtUHBiW/view?usp=sharing

Just to be clear, I don't have a turntable in my main room (I refuse to have one - too much clutter and fussing around for my liking). But I do have a couple of (very modest) turntables and an old beaten up ADC in a small 'studio' in my basement. I've ripped the D2D vinyl to a 16/44.1 file, played back the file on my main system (all digital) and recorded using a stereo mic (but don't expect to hear any soundstage at all!).
.

Thank you Mani. Now we have two videos of this Bruckner D2D from two different systems. One thing not subjective to preference, the dynamic of this album.

Tang

 

Thank you Mani. Now we have two videos of this Bruckner D2D from two different systems. One thing not subjective to preference, the dynamic of this album.

Both the rip and the in-room recording are showing dynamic ranges of >21 .

Mani.

 

OK, here's mine...

Anima - Bruckner 7 Allegro moderato:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18LzGAbAvcY7iWbB4k88DTIyxJjtUHBiW/view?usp=sharing

Just to be clear, I don't have a turntable in my main room (I refuse to have one - too much clutter and fussing around for my liking). But I do have a couple of (very modest) turntables and an old beaten up ADC in a small 'studio' in my basement. I've ripped the D2D vinyl to a 16/44.1 file, played back the file on my main system (all digital) and recorded using a stereo mic (but don't expect to hear any soundstage at all!).

Incredibly good interpretation of this glorious music, gives me shivers.

Some people complain that this recording has no dynamics? WTH?

 

Thank you Mani. Now we have two videos of this Bruckner D2D from two different systems. One thing not subjective to preference, the dynamic of this album.

Tang

Where is the other video?

 

Where is the other video?

Tang's thread

 

Tang's thread

Ok, found it, thanks:

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/zero-distortion-tango-time.26464/page-178#post-666211

(post # 3557, don't know why there link doesn't directly go there)