What do you use for vibration isolation?
- Thread starter Reid.Whitney
- Start date
Billy et al, I wouldn't mind if this was a forum for eg car safety, food standards, medical ethics.
With these, it would be easy to prove if one tyre worked better than another - check the number of crashes, or if one foodstuff was poisonous (yes, you guessed how to check), or one drug was more efficacious etc etc.
But we're talking about subjective tastes and choices.
Noone on on a car tuning or foodie forum berates members going for expensive exhausts or pricey ingredients because they don't measure better.
Keith better start justifying why he runs a £1k coffee machine and boutique coffee blend at his studio, rather than cheapo cheapo instant:
BECAUSE IT TASTES BETTER, not BECAUSE IT IS BETTER!!!
Of course, if it is better, where's the data Keith?
No, this is the bloody high end, a realm populated by big egos w/money spending great amounts of it w/people w/even bigger egos!!!
Yes, a recipe for disaster if people didn't hear differently, and didn't have different priorities.
And if it was all about measurements, Fremer would have loved your Grand Prix Monaco tt Keith, instead of hating it, Halcro would have sown up the high end amp market, and you'd be selling YG spkrs which apparently measure the best.
With these, it would be easy to prove if one tyre worked better than another - check the number of crashes, or if one foodstuff was poisonous (yes, you guessed how to check), or one drug was more efficacious etc etc.
But we're talking about subjective tastes and choices.
Noone on on a car tuning or foodie forum berates members going for expensive exhausts or pricey ingredients because they don't measure better.
Keith better start justifying why he runs a £1k coffee machine and boutique coffee blend at his studio, rather than cheapo cheapo instant:
BECAUSE IT TASTES BETTER, not BECAUSE IT IS BETTER!!!
Of course, if it is better, where's the data Keith?
No, this is the bloody high end, a realm populated by big egos w/money spending great amounts of it w/people w/even bigger egos!!!
Yes, a recipe for disaster if people didn't hear differently, and didn't have different priorities.
And if it was all about measurements, Fremer would have loved your Grand Prix Monaco tt Keith, instead of hating it, Halcro would have sown up the high end amp market, and you'd be selling YG spkrs which apparently measure the best.
DooooooH!!! Thank you for that bonzo, I did have a look through my spectacular hangover before I posted, I have duly added you to my list
You will never add me to the ignore list, because you need me to chart your component path
- Logans, shun mooks, Lampi, horns, etcHe damned it w/faint praise, review kicked up a Hell of a storm on Audiogon from it's many fans. May have been set up badly, or poor arm/cart synergy, and support is crucial - btw, the one and ONLY time I'm in agreement w/Keith that tts need good suppports like the Spiers air table.
btw Bonzo, noone can ignore you, you are the font of all knowledge, w/the greatest ears God ever gave to man. Oh, sorry that's describing me, I forgot.
btw Bonzo, noone can ignore you, you are the font of all knowledge, w/the greatest ears God ever gave to man. Oh, sorry that's describing me, I forgot
.Yep, that's the only thing that MEASURES differently, it's price.
How it tastes? Don't make me laugh Keith if you're going to tell me cheap instant coffee out of a jar measures better, because it sure doesn't.
Anyhow, welcome to the club of suckers paying more for stuff that has no measurements to back it up.
Or, you didn't, did you? I mean fall for the salesman, or the company propaganda, that La Marzocco makes a BETTER cup of coffee. Shame on you Keith, so gullible.
How it tastes? Don't make me laugh Keith if you're going to tell me cheap instant coffee out of a jar measures better, because it sure doesn't.
Anyhow, welcome to the club of suckers paying more for stuff that has no measurements to back it up.
Or, you didn't, did you? I mean fall for the salesman, or the company propaganda, that La Marzocco makes a BETTER cup of coffee. Shame on you Keith, so gullible.
And this is why there will be no discussion on my end. You are pompous, arrogant, condescending and insulting all at the same time... amazing. Does it make you feel good to insult and belittle other people? In what universe does this seem like acceptable behavior?
Does this post not violate the TOU of this forum?
You will never add me to the ignore list, because you need me to chart your component path
Well, let me consider the time line on these,
ML, Nope, I go way back with ML, CLS's and CLS MKIIZ.
Shun Mook, arguably, as I had played around with the lower end of the range by the time you started posting so enthusiastically, you were however the catalyst in my experimenting with the GDR's as you just would not STFU about them!
Lampizator, again in part, along with a few others, in peaking my interest in the GG and requisite financial penury.
Harnz, Bahhh! Been flirting with DIY and Commercial designs for yonks, a larger listening room will see me seriously considering the Sadurni Accoustics , however I have an curious eye upon Pete's latest WE Replica project.
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Sablons? What do cables have to do with large listening room? Go to Leipzig for a proper demo of Pete's horn - it will take him two years to set it up right
Lol, been swapping emails with Mark just recently, edit to Sadurni Accoustics as I will not be able to read any reply
I am at least a year away from a move to a more large Horn friendly listening environment therefore no immediate urgency for the WE 5.1 system, the Sadurni's remain my weapon of choice at this time.
I am at least a year away from a move to a more large Horn friendly listening environment therefore no immediate urgency for the WE 5.1 system, the Sadurni's remain my weapon of choice at this time.
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I am open to everyone's experiences with isolation as no two systems are ever quite the same but when it comes to coffee Spirit and Keith I have to say La Marzocco is the gold standard with or without measurements... but I did get a greater than component level upgrade out of my humble Giotto by whacking some Stillpoint Ultra 5s underneath... the short blacks are definitely blacker and the crema is clearly more intense and colour saturated for sure tho the shun mooks were even better for me under the grinder.
Ps you know I'm am just kiddin fellas...
Sound Of Tao, I salute you!
I've done blinded tests and my unbiased (sic) findings are that coffee drunk when sitting on a chair supported by Shun Mooks is more intense, aromatic and deeply satisfying, whilst on a chair supported by Stillpoints, is sharper and more thirst quenching.
On the chair supported by a Spiers And Robertson Air Table or Herzan/Accurion Shelf, I can tell all the threads of flavour apart, even when Keith's bad vibrations threaten to tense me up. The verdict is clear, get some proper isolation, and get RIGHT away from Keith's decidedly lo fi interference.
PS I'm definitely not joking, I've done the tests (nearly killed myself as my chair fell off these supports, but the calm it induced into my coffee drinking has been invaluable).
I've done blinded tests and my unbiased (sic) findings are that coffee drunk when sitting on a chair supported by Shun Mooks is more intense, aromatic and deeply satisfying, whilst on a chair supported by Stillpoints, is sharper and more thirst quenching.
On the chair supported by a Spiers And Robertson Air Table or Herzan/Accurion Shelf, I can tell all the threads of flavour apart, even when Keith's bad vibrations threaten to tense me up. The verdict is clear, get some proper isolation, and get RIGHT away from Keith's decidedly lo fi interference.
PS I'm definitely not joking, I've done the tests (nearly killed myself as my chair fell off these supports, but the calm it induced into my coffee drinking has been invaluable).
Guys, after the initial 5 day period, I began to notice 30-35 improvements in the coffee flavor until day 10. I can tell you because I had a group of coffee lovers over last Tuesday night, that after one year, I have noticed no fewer than 145 improvements in the coffee I serve. It will take a full 5 years before I notice all of the improvements, because the beans have to be grown, the soil watered, etc. but I can say with utmost confidence that I serve the best coffee available, and it is better than all of the SOTA coffees that everyone else has tasted.
I know, I know, people ask me what the secret is, and how I have achieved this remarkable success. I simply say to them, believe me. I know what I am doing. My coffee is superior. I have spent years working on my solution and have spent countless hours and dollars refining my methods. I even sell small samples for $5 per cup and well known critics can't believe how good this stuff is. My research tells me that the vast amount of poor flavors are caused by internal inconsistencies within the growing process and distortions to the flavor added by cream, milk, hazelnut and many, many other flavors. The blending, the grinding, the mixing, it all has do be done the right way. My way. Believe me, I know what I am talking about. No, I will not share any details, but it is SOTA coffee flavor, believe me.
Perhaps we can now start talking about ice-cream flavors....or go back to the original discussion.
I know, I know, people ask me what the secret is, and how I have achieved this remarkable success. I simply say to them, believe me. I know what I am doing. My coffee is superior. I have spent years working on my solution and have spent countless hours and dollars refining my methods. I even sell small samples for $5 per cup and well known critics can't believe how good this stuff is. My research tells me that the vast amount of poor flavors are caused by internal inconsistencies within the growing process and distortions to the flavor added by cream, milk, hazelnut and many, many other flavors. The blending, the grinding, the mixing, it all has do be done the right way. My way. Believe me, I know what I am talking about. No, I will not share any details, but it is SOTA coffee flavor, believe me.
Perhaps we can now start talking about ice-cream flavors....or go back to the original discussion.
Just don't go for dsp, the removal of coffee beans of a certain size, means that the final blend and taste seems to be a little bland - just what taste would those missing beans have contributed? I'd rather have them, and risk a taste that may be a little unfocussed but fuller of character.
Dsp'd java = decaf
Dsp'd java = decaf
Guys, please be nice to each other. More talk about coffee, and less talk about the other person.
Let’s think about this, Dave. Now you didn’t, but let’s think about this.
Like others, I was simply sharing and defending a variation of vibration mgmt. in this thread until you start calling me names like misguided, full of BS, etc. And then you attempt to solidify your naïve prejudices by stating you have an engineering degree.
Yet in my defense when I shed some light on the tremendous and unimaginable performance benefits of my discovery and you’ve not a shred of evidence that you know anything about achieving anything noteworthy from a vibration mgmt. perspective, much less anything performance related, you start the name calling all over again.
Pompous, arrogant, condescending, and insulting all at the same time? Insult and belittle?
Who’s the pompous and arrogant and insulting one when in my defense to your previous name calling I’ve sufficiently substantiated on paper that I just might know what I’m talking about? Yet you continue the name calling even though you’ve yet to demonstrate that you know the first thing about vibration mgmt. leading any significant performance gains? Nor have you shed any light whatsoever that you know anything related to playback performance, or that you even have ears to hear.
Moreover, I provided you an excellent example of the destruction that air-borne vibrations induce on a car outdoors. Yet your stubborn brain still cannot fathom that air-borne vibrations just might be wreaking similar havoc on our sensitive components indoors where if anything the air-borne vibrations could even be more impacting. Instead you pervert that car analogy by trying to convince yourself and others that somehow basic laws of energy behavior changes once the location moves indoors.
I perceive tho art a prideful man, Dave.
BTW, I notice next to your avatar it says, "industry expert". Would you mind sharing what it is that you're expert of?
You do realize that Ethan Winer, a gent who claims all cables and components are transparent to the signal and who listens only with his eyes because he can't rely on his untrustworthy ears, wrote a book entitled, "The Audio Expert" and AES even invites him to sit on "expert" panels at AES conventions?
Per chance you're not one of those "experts" are you?
Peter, you’re mocking me again. Yet you have no reason except that you’re ignorant of the technology I employ. I’m not mocking you, as my character won’t allow it. Even though I have more than ample reason to mock you and some of those reasons apply to audio.
Frankly, I find it incomprehensible for any adult to mock anybody for anything. But when I do witness it, it tells me far more about that adult than I ever care to know.
I’ve been developing the impression you like to open new threads to see which way the wind is blowing (to seek a consensus) because I suspect you usually don’t have much of a clue to a given question. Nothing wrong with that but I thought I’d share my observation with you.
Tell me, Peter, do you ever wonder why from a performance perspective high-end audio still remains very much in its infancy? I didn’t think so. Along that same vein, why don't you open one more thread entitled,
“What does real performance mean in high-end audio?”
where we can all let our hair down and get down to some brass tax regarding this most important topic. I suggest we start with what it means to have or develop a performance-oriented mindset because without that mindset, we’re all just driving our station wagons down the quarter mile without the hubcaps and calling that high-performance drag racing. Wouldn't you agree?
Frankly, I find it incomprehensible for any adult to mock anybody for anything. But when I do witness it, it tells me far more about that adult than I ever care to know.
I’ve been developing the impression you like to open new threads to see which way the wind is blowing (to seek a consensus) because I suspect you usually don’t have much of a clue to a given question. Nothing wrong with that but I thought I’d share my observation with you.
Tell me, Peter, do you ever wonder why from a performance perspective high-end audio still remains very much in its infancy? I didn’t think so. Along that same vein, why don't you open one more thread entitled,
“What does real performance mean in high-end audio?”
where we can all let our hair down and get down to some brass tax regarding this most important topic. I suggest we start with what it means to have or develop a performance-oriented mindset because without that mindset, we’re all just driving our station wagons down the quarter mile without the hubcaps and calling that high-performance drag racing. Wouldn't you agree?
It is quite a complex but interesting subject. I consider it as a fundamental one with the following as being important:
All of these are usually just taken for granted.
Some of these may have very small effects depending on your system, but you know what happens with many such very small effects simultaneously - they add up.
Doing this properly requires some effort, but it is a fundamental thing to do for proper music reproduction, together with two or three other fundamentals like proper Power (and grounding), proper room response taming.
It can also be combined with one of the other fundamentals rather easily: if you have an AC Conditioner, then you could experiment with isolating it from vibrations. I view cables as another component but I have not yet experimented with isolating them but if I did, I would first strive to isolate power cords after isolating the AC Conditioner device.
Soundstage, bass to mid-range, transients are all affected in my system and in my experiments (constrained layer damping and cup-and-ball arrangements mostly).
- Preventing low-level seismic vibrations from affecting the gear
- Preventing air-borne vibrations from affecting the gear
- Preventing internal vibrations from affecting the gear (e.g. a transformer's vibrations affecting an oscillator or clock or capacitors)
- Preventing vibrations inherent to one component from being transmitted to other components
- Preventing sympathetic vibrations of other surfaces from interacting with the music reproduction (the effect of a vibrating floor-board which I used to have before building my speaker stands and isolating them comes within this)
All of these are usually just taken for granted.
Some of these may have very small effects depending on your system, but you know what happens with many such very small effects simultaneously - they add up.
Doing this properly requires some effort, but it is a fundamental thing to do for proper music reproduction, together with two or three other fundamentals like proper Power (and grounding), proper room response taming.
It can also be combined with one of the other fundamentals rather easily: if you have an AC Conditioner, then you could experiment with isolating it from vibrations. I view cables as another component but I have not yet experimented with isolating them but if I did, I would first strive to isolate power cords after isolating the AC Conditioner device.
Soundstage, bass to mid-range, transients are all affected in my system and in my experiments (constrained layer damping and cup-and-ball arrangements mostly).
This thread had clearly devolved and people started to discuss coffee. Claims were made, but unfortunately, no discussion to support those claims came forth, and I wanted to express my frustration through satire. The thread topic seems to be over, so in an effort to learn more about vibration control, I started a new thread in the Science Forum to more seriously discuss this important topic. Perhaps that thread will be more informative. I certainly hope so.
I admit to being ignorant of the technology you employ because you have written very little about it, yet you claim it goes further than any other method to manage vibrations. Despite my many attempts to learn something about it, you have been not discussed it. Yes, I do ask questions when I do not have a clue about the subject.
I challenged some of your assertions in an effort to learn more about what you claim. And in response to your post above, I will do it again, here. I do not believe that high end audio still remains very much in its infancy. I have been astonished by some of the systems that I have heard. No, they do not sound exactly like the real thing, but they do resemble the sound of the real thing, and sometimes to a surprising degree. You ask me this question and answer before I have a chance to respond. So now I do, and I disagree with your premise. You assumed I would not answer with your curt "I didn't think so." But I have, and there it is.
As far as starting threads for other people, I think it's better if they start them themselves, especially if they are really interested in the topic.
Regarding a performance oriented mindset, I agree. That is why I use the BSO as my reference and refer to it and other live performances as a basis by which I judge the performance of my system and possible changes to it.
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