What is it about most audiophile cable designs that make cables sound like Tone Controls?

[caesar]

Does anyone understand what it is about most cable designs that audiophile cables are used as tone controls? Can an audiophile cable not be a tone control?

As quick examples, let me pick on a couple of the "bigger guys": Nordost seems to have high resolution but lacks bass while Transparent has more robust bass, and these are then recommended by dealers to solve these types of problems

Thanks in advance

 

[andromedaaudio]

Its a great business model .

 

[Cellcbern]

Does anyone understand what it is about most cable designs that audiophile cables are used as tone controls? Can an audiophile cable not be a tone control?

As quick examples, let me pick on a couple of the "bigger guys": Nordost seems to have high resolution but lacks bass while Transparent has more robust bass, and these are then recommended by dealers to solve these types of problems
s/
Thanks in advance

What's to understand? Given that different components sound different it is a blessing that cables can relatively easily be used to help achieve sytem synergy and balance. I wouldn't want it any other way. All an audiophile has to do is use his/her ears to find the cables that produce the best results (given available resources) with his/her system. In 40+ years as an audiophile I've never had trouble doing that.

 

[caesar]

What's to understand? Given that different components sound different it is a blessing that cables can relatively easily be used to help achieve sytem synergy and balance. I wouldn't want it any other way. All an audiophile has to do is use his/her ears to find the cables that produce the best results (given available resources) with his/her system. In 40+ years as an audiophile I've never had trouble doing that.

Hi,
Yes, I think we all do. Or at least those of us who believe in cabels. But I want to go deeper and understand why this is.

 

[Carlos269]

Does anyone understand what it is about most cable designs that audiophile cables are used as tone controls? Can an audiophile cable not be a tone control?

As quick examples, let me pick on a couple of the "bigger guys": Nordost seems to have high resolution but lacks bass while Transparent has more robust bass, and these are then recommended by dealers to solve these types of problems

Thanks in advance

It’s LRC = Inductance, Resistance and Capacitance. Audiophile cables are filters based on their electrical properties. Same end result can be achieved through active filtering but in a more intelligent adjustable (scalable, parametrically selectable and temporal variance) and defeat-able way. Without having to resort to the audiophile trial-and-error ways.

 

[andromedaaudio]

But I want to go deeper and understand why this is.

Be careful what you wish for ceasar .

 

[PeterA]

What's to understand? Given that different components sound different it is a blessing that cables can relatively easily be used to help achieve sytem synergy and balance. I wouldn't want it any other way. All an audiophile has to do is use his/her ears to find the cables that produce the best results (given available resources) with his/her system. In 40+ years as an audiophile I've never had trouble doing that.

I disagree. I would prefer it not be this way. How about just a good basic cable that is not a tone control but rather adds and removes little or nothing and does not cost as much as a component? Then we could simply listen to the components in the room context and buy the ones we like. There would be no need to fix issues or create balance with cables as tone controls or worse, "band aids" (pun intended). This would be a much simpler and easier approach. The problem, unfortunately, is finding a cable that has little or no sound of its own.

 

[Carlos269]

It’s LRC = Inductance, Resistance and Capacitance. Audiophile cables are filters based on their electrical properties. Same end result can be achieved through active filtering but in a more intelligent adjustable (scalable, parametrically selectable and temporal variance) and defeat-able way. Without having to resort to the audiophile trial-and-error ways.

For the sake of completeness, let me add that it is not just the electrical characteristics of the cable that forms the filter but their electrical interaction with the source components output characteristic (resistance, capacitance and inductance) and the destination component’s input electrical properties (resistance, capacitance and inductance). And it is this interaction that comes into play on why audio cables sound different depending on which components they are used to connect.

I disagree. I would prefer it not be this way. How about just a good basic cable that is not a tone control but rather adds and removes little or nothing and does not cost as much as a component? Then we could simply listen to the components in the room context and buy the ones we like. There would be no need to fix issues or create balance with cables as tone controls or worse, "band aids" (pun intended). This would be a much simpler and easier approach. The problem, unfortunately, is finding a cable that has little or no sound of its own.

There are some audio cables manufacturers that strive for neutrality by reducing resistance, inductance and capacitance in their cables, their design, their construction techniques and assembly processes. One that comes to mind and which I greatly enjoy is Gotham Audio cables from Switzerland. It was my understanding that FM Acoustics used the Gotham Audio cables in the Forceline line of audio cables but this of course would need to be verified and could have changed over time, if it was ever true. You can take two of the same wires and change the cable assembly construction and the result will be two different sounding cables. The spacing between conductors affects the inductance and capacitance. The twisting (turns per inch) and fillers also impact the overall capacitance and the air, cotton, wool, horse-hair, Teflon, rubber, bees-wax, oil impregnated fabrics, PFT, polypropylene or whatever material is used between conductors serve as dialectrics. Solid core versus stranded conductors, assembly techniques and materials greatly effect the resultant sound but in the end it all boils down to the cable assembly’s LRC and their electrical interaction with the source components output electrical characteristics and the destination component’s input electrical properties to form an electrical filter, which by its nature and definition is signal processing. That’s what it is in layman’s terms.

 

[Cellcbern]

Hi,
Yes, I think we all do. Or at least those of us who believe in cabels. But I want to go deeper and understand why this is.

I disagree. I would prefer it not be this way. How about just a good basic cable that is not a tone control but rather adds and removes little or nothing and does not cost as much as a component? Then we could simply listen to the components in the room context and buy the ones we like. There would be no need to fix issues or create balance with cables as tone controls or worse, "band aids" (pun intended). This would be a much simpler and easier approach. The problem, unfortunately, is finding a cable that has little or no sound of its own.

I disagree. I would prefer it not be this way. How about just a good basic cable that is not a tone control but rather adds and removes little or nothing and does not cost as much as a component? Then we could simply listen to the components in the room context and buy the ones we like. There would be no need to fix issues or create balance with cables as tone controls or worse, "band aids" (pun intended). This would be a much simpler and easier approach. The problem, unfortunately, is finding a cable that has little or no sound of its own.

Why stop with cables? Why not have one perfectly "neutral" amplifier, one source, and one speaker design? Then you wouldn't have to make any decisions or take any risks. Cables have never presented a problem for me (or anyone else in my circle of audiophile friends and club members), and I have never once thought that I needed to find a cable that has little or no sound of its own. For the record, I don't give a rat's ass about "neutrality" a term which means different things to different people, and is too often used to describe a sound that is sterile or clinical. That does not mean that I want cables that editorialize the signal. What's important is that they don't subtract the natural warmth of music as many so-called "neutral cables seem to do. I want natural musicality and emotional connection to the music from my audio system and I am getting it with Echole, Hemingway Audio, Verastarr, and Townshend cables. Again, if you have ears that work and you have learned to listen it is relatively easy to find cables that work well with your system.

 

[Cellcbern]

Hi,
Yes, I think we all do. Or at least those of us who believe in cabels. But I want to go deeper and understand why this is.

Go deeper and understand what - why audiophiles use cables as tone controls or why different designs/brands/models of cables sound different?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Hi,
Yes, I think we all do. Or at least those of us who believe in cabels. But I want to go deeper and understand why this is.

Freudian typo Caesar… sure you don’t mean cabals?

You have systems and therefore you have cables… so you can also build on our understanding here. So what cables did you decide to run in each system and what made you choose them?

 

[tima]

I disagree. I would prefer it not be this way. How about just a good basic cable that is not a tone control but rather adds and removes little or nothing and does not cost as much as a component? Then we could simply listen to the components in the room context and buy the ones we like. There would be no need to fix issues or create balance with cables as tone controls or worse, "band aids" (pun intended). This would be a much simpler and easier approach. The problem, unfortunately, is finding a cable that has little or no sound of its own.

Yes, it all seems so backwards. Why not buy the cables first then add components to tune them?

If you need to use cables to tune your components - you bought the wrong components. Others no doubt disagree given the rise of the cable market over the past 20-25 years. But I want to hear my components.

I like your phrasing "adds and removes little or nothing". While every cable has some sonic influence, I'm getting more to the point of believing many cables labeled or marketed for audiophiles either intrude in some way or are built with the intention of delivering a particular sonic signature. Within the 'audiophile marketplace' it would seem that many cable makers intend to offer something that differentiates their product from other audiophile marketplace cable brands. Occasionally that differentiation may be the absence of intentional alteration, as @Carlos269 hints at.

I do understand people may have a preference for hearing their components altered by some particular cable's signature. As perhaps @caeser is asking - the question is why that preference versus a less or non-intrusive cable that let's one hear the components themselves. While there are a few noted exceptions, it is unusual to hear electronics manufacturers claim that cable xyz improves their component or lets its true nature shine through.

Whereas non-audiophile marketed cables, even pro-audio offerings either make claims not tied to sonic tuning or no claims at all, relying on specs to tell the buyer if they meet his need. It is rare that such cables need jewelry or decoration to catch the eye.

 

[andromedaaudio]

If you need to use cables to tune your components - you bought the wrong components.

 

[Cellcbern]

For the sake of completeness, let me add that it is not just the electrical characteristics of the cable that forms the filter but their electrical interaction with the source components output characteristic (resistance, capacitance and inductance) and the destination component’s input electrical properties (resistance, capacitance and inductance). And it is this interaction that comes into play on why audio cables sound different depending on which components they are used to connect.



There are some audio cables manufacturers that strive for neutrality by reducing resistance, inductance and capacitance in their cables, their design and assembly processe. One that comes to mind and which I greatly enjoy is Gotham Audio cables from Switzerland. it was my understanding that FM Acoustics used the Gotham Audio cables in the Forceline line of audio cables but this of course would need to be verified and could have changed over time, if it was ever true. You can take two of the same wires and change the cable assembly construction and the result will be two different sounding cables. The spacing between conductors affects the inductance and capacitance. The twisting (turns per inch) and fillers also impact the overall capacitance and the air, wool, horse-hair, or whatever material is used between conductors serve as dialectrics. Solid core versus stranded conductors, assembly techniques and materials greatly effect the resultant sound but in the end it all boils down to the cable assembly’s LRC and their electrical interaction with the source components output electrical characteristics and the destination component’s input electrical properties to form an electrical filter, which by its nature and definition is signal processing. That’s what it is in layman’s terms.

Saying that "if you have to use cables to tune your components you bought the wrong components" is like saying that if you have to season the dish you are cooking with spices, you bought the wrong ingredients. First of all there are no perfect components - all have design trade-offs. Secondly it is not possible to listen to your components except through cables so every system is being "tuned" by cables to some extent whether we like it or not. It is not possible to compare components or systems with and without cables. For those posters looking for cables that add or subtract nothing - I hope you find them. Like the gourmet chef who tastes and seasons the dish while cooking I will continue the trial and error process of using my ears to determine which mix of cables gives me the best system synergy.

 

[andromedaaudio]

This is what i use internally in the speakers plus as speaker cable .
Silverplated copper strands teflon insulated .

Costs about 100 euro in total .

E-1219 mono zilverkabel wit

zilverkabel wit

shop.speakerenco.nl

I hope you find them.

I have found them already

 

[K3RMIT]

Cables used have a profound effect on sound for all of the reasons mentioned above. these electronic properties if measured can be known to have the possible sound effect ahead of using them. in addition the source output imp and device input imp as well can be used to in advance to some degree be a known effect.
As an example most preamp have a fairly low output imp feeding a higher input imp this allows for a more mute effect.
but even using this normal topology method does have effects. it’s why one pre maybe good on a given amp while other amps may not.
interconnects add or detract the electrical interaction to this already unknown sound. i agree cables should not be used to create the final sound we want. but using them is a very good tool To have. how long a given type of wire used in some ways is a must have to fend off unwanted interaction that in most cases degrade the sound.
How much we spend does not equate to better sound , but this flys in the face of facts Of most posts.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Its all about good component design what defines the sound .
Whether its amps source speakers .
Cables are of much lesser importance " in my view "

Disclaimer : But im probably deaf and my system / speakers aren t revealing enough

 

[Cellcbern]

This is what i use internally in the speakers plus as speaker cable .
Silverplated copper strands teflon insulated .

Costs about 100 euro in total .

E-1219 mono zilverkabel wit

zilverkabel wit

shop.speakerenco.nl

I have found them already

Great.

Of course you can only know that a cable is adding and/or subtracting something relative to other cables. And its fine if you've found cables you like and stick with them. However if you have the continual improvement bug like me you have to seek out and listen to other cables, arrange where possible for home auditions, and sometimes even buy a set to try. By doing this over the years I have repeatedly found opportunities for system improvement via new/different cables that subtracted less and/or added some positive attribute my current cables lacked. You could call this getting closer to "neutral" if you like.

 

[Ron Resnick]

It’s LRC = Inductance, Resistance and Capacitance. Audiophile cables are filters based on their electrical properties.

+1

 

[Cellcbern]

Cables used have a profound effect on sound for all of the reasons mentioned above. these electronic properties if measured can be known to have the possible sound effect ahead of using them. in addition the source output imp and device input imp as well can be used to in advance to some degree be a known effect.
As an example most preamp have a fairly low output imp feeding a higher input imp this allows for a more mute effect.
but even using this normal topology method does have effects. it’s why one pre maybe good on a given amp while other amps may not.
interconnects add or detract the electrical interaction to this already unknown sound. i agree cables should not be used to create the final sound we want. but using them is a very good tool To have. how long a given type of wire used in some ways is a must have to fend off unwanted interaction that in most cases degrade the sound.
How much we spend does not equate to better sound , but this flys in the face of facts Of most posts.

Yes, it all seems so backwards. Why not buy the cables first then add components to tune them?

If you need to use cables to tune your components - you bought the wrong components. Others no doubt disagree given the rise of the cable market over the past 20-25 years. But I want to hear my components.

I like your phrasing "adds and removes little or nothing". While every cable has some sonic influence, I'm getting more to the point of believing many cables labeled or marketed for audiophiles either intrude in some way or are built with the intention of delivering a particular sonic signature. Within the 'audiophile marketplace' it would seem that many cable makers intend to offer something that differentiates their product from other audiophile marketplace cable brands. Occasionally that differentiation may be the absence of intentional alteration, as @Carlos269 hints at.

I do understand people may have a preference for hearing their components altered by some particular cable's signature. As perhaps @caeser is asking - the question is why that preference versus a less or non-intrusive cable that let's one hear the components themselves. While there are a few noted exceptions, it is unusual to hear electronics manufacturers claim that cable xyz improves their component or lets its true nature shine through.

Whereas non-audiophile marketed cables, even pro-audio offerings either make claims not tied to sonic tuning or no claims at all, relying on specs to tell the buyer if they meet his need. It is rare that such cables need jewelry or decoration to catch the eye.

FYI: An argument for buying cables first:

Building a New System - Positive Feedback

Building a New System

positive-feedback.com