A Superior / Musical Bass: Does it exist? If so, is it free? How do we recognize it? How do we achieve it?

[andromedaaudio]

A good respectable bass can be costly as you describe here. A superior / musical bass can be free, per my description above.

Can you please explain a bit further , i dont really understand yet how you achieve superior bass for free .
I think the dutch " for free " might be particularly interested

 

[Atmasphere]

From that starting point, I might move the speakers in 6-inch increments in any given direction always measuring to ensure both speaker cabinets are symetrical. It's important to me to always lay a little tape for reference as to where the speaker was last positoned in case I need to go back. As I start to hone in on an improved bass, I'll eventually get it down to 1-inch and then 1/2-inch increments until the light switches on. Once there I may even try one or two smaller moves just to see if the speaker acoustically couples even better with the room than before.

I think you might have missed an important point that Duke brought up about his process. Usually its far easier (taking minutes or hours rather than days; in my case the hardest part was getting the subs out of their shipping boxes) than what you are describing here and the results are often better.

The multiple sub concept that Duke promotes actually works quite well. If you are not using it and your room is any sort of regular shape its highly likely you simply aren't hearing all the bass in recordings due to standing wave cancellations. If you have a cancellation, you can't fix it with bass traps or room correction, and if you simply move your speakers slightly while maintaining a symmetrical relationship to the room, its a guarantee that you will always be missing some bass at some frequency- moving the speakers simply changes what frequency.

By contrast the DBA system works much better. The subwoofer placement isn't critical as long as they are placed asymmetrically. IOW, 'plant, plug and play' without much thought (although being sure to see to it that the subs do not attract attention by keeping their output below 80Hz). You might try swapping the phase of one sub on occasionally more difficult setups.

One more point: most solid state amps can make pretty good bass on account of the fact that in the bass region, since the 1970s most solid state amps have had sufficient feedback to allow for a fairly neutral bass presentation (although those very same amps lack enough feedback when frequency is increased due to insufficient Gain Bandwidth Product). So the subwoofer amp is likely not a critical element if used in subs that don't go over 80Hz, as long as it makes enough power. The exception might be a zero feedback solid state design, as harmonics of its output could cause the subwoofer to attract attention.

 

[stehno]

Can you please explain a bit further , i dont really understand yet how you achieve superior bass for free .
I think the dutch " for free " might be particularly interested

It's just locating a suprior speaker position as I outlined in post #34. No and no less. Only I keep plugging away at the positioning until a literal bass transformation occurs.

 

[thedudeabides]

I read threads like this and truly wonder if anyone enjoys listening to music or is just distracted by perceived imperfections. IMHO, quite sad and entirely missing the point of this hobby. I hope certain members find their "perfect" bass in their lifetime. But then, I suspect there will be something else that is imperfect.

 

[Al M.]

I read threads like this and truly wonder if anyone enjoys listening to music or is just distracted by perceived imperfections. IMHO, quite sad and entirely missing the point of this hobby. I hope certain members find their "perfect" bass in their lifetime. But then, I suspect there will be something else that is imperfect.

My bass is perfect enough for me. To your point, I'm just loving the way my system presents music.

 

[andromedaaudio]

I read threads like this and truly wonder if anyone enjoys listening to music or is just distracted by perceived imperfections. IMHO, quite sad and entirely missing the point of this hobby.

Thats what this hobby audiophilia is all about .
I can enjoy music on my motorbike / car as well for a couple 100 $$.
At least i dont try to solve system imperfections with thicker cables , lol

 

[thedudeabides]

This hobby should not encourage OCD behavior. It is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. It's all, in my view, a question of balance and managing your expectations.

 

[Atmasphere]

I read threads like this and truly wonder if anyone enjoys listening to music or is just distracted by perceived imperfections. IMHO, quite sad and entirely missing the point of this hobby. I hope certain members find their "perfect" bass in their lifetime. But then, I suspect there will be something else that is imperfect.

I've found that different people have entirely different motivations for their involvement in high end audio. For some its about seeing how good they can get it to sound. For others they like hearing how different equipment sounds (which is different from the first). For others, they like to horse trade. Still others are completists and like to collect gear from certain manufacturers. Still others are record or CD collectors; others are about the music only and are just in high end to get closer to it. I'm in the latter category but learned very early on that a rising tide floats all boats. Whatever makes people happy seems to me the more important aspect of the hobby.

 

[thedudeabides]

Whatever makes people happy seems to me the more important aspect of the hobby.

Totally agree. Happy should be the end goal.

 

[andromedaaudio]

This hobby should not encourage OCD behavior. It is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. It's all, in my view, a question of balance and managing your expectations.

Totally agree. Happy should be the end goal.

This thread is about good satisfying bass being the end goal .
If a system cannot reproduce the whole freq range , one can also not capture the whole artists performance in ones listening room ( depending on what freq. are in the music )
20 hz - 20 khz is what its about , just factual , whether it makes one happy or not is irrelevant

 

[sbo6]

Too much to unpack in a thread and much has already been well articulated above so here are a few thoughts on how to achieve musical, tight, tuneful bass.

- If the objective is full frequency extension down to ~18hz with modest to no peaks / dips then subwoofers are almost always required. The only alternative IME is a very large room to avoid bass nodes.

- Quality matters - In life and in audio, in most instances you pay for what you get. Quality speakers and subwoofers matter. You'll be starting off 1 foot in a hole if you purchase less than highly reputable speakers / subwoofers and won't ever achieve very good bass.

- Room treatments, room size and room dimensions matter. IME, I've never heard tuneful, tight articulate bass in a small room at moderate or higher levels.

- Don't underestimate the importance of speaker and subwoofer placement. Measurement equipment and your ears will go along way coupled with time and patience.

- If all above is employed well, DEQ applied sparingly can be your friend. Even the biggest and best rooms with the finest speakers and subs placed strategically in a room can't beat physics. And in many cases DEQ to tame peaks can reduce low frequency reverberations and will go a long way.

- WRT to professionals vs. DIY - IME there are very few "professionals" in this arena. Also, if you are willing to learn, for a nominal expense you can achieve what no "professional" can accomplish due to 1 factor - time. For them it's limited, for you it's limitless. It may take you longer than a "pro" but you can experiment and learn and achieve optimal bass, as long as you have patience.


Enjoy and Happy Listening!

 

[Atmasphere]

The only alternative IME is a very large room to avoid bass nodes.

- Quality matters - In life and in audio, in most instances you pay for what you get. Quality speakers and subwoofers matter. You'll be starting off 1 foot in a hole if you purchase less than highly reputable speakers / subwoofers and won't ever achieve very good bass.

- Room treatments, room size and room dimensions matter. IME, I've never heard tuneful, tight articulate bass in a small room at moderate or higher levels.

- Don't underestimate the importance of speaker and subwoofer placement. Measurement equipment and your ears will go along way coupled with time and patience.

- If all above is employed well, DEQ applied sparingly can be your friend. Even the biggest and best rooms with the finest speakers and subs placed strategically in a room can't beat physics. And in many cases DEQ to tame peaks can reduce low frequency reverberations and will go a long way.

Actually a better solution is a Distributed Bass Array (DBA) as I mentioned earlier. Then you don't have 'bass nodes'.

This is far more effective than room treatment and/or DEQ. Those are about 5% effective where a DBA is 95% effective. The DEQ will really only work right if a DBA is employed; neither a DEQ or room treatment can do anything about bass nulls (caused by standing waves)- they can only fix peaks. We're not trying to 'beat physics'; in the case of a DBA we're 'using physics'.

 

[sbo6]

Actually a better solution is a Distributed Bass Array (DBA) as I mentioned earlier. Then you don't have 'bass nodes'.

This is far more effective than room treatment and/or DEQ. Those are about 5% effective where a DBA is 95% effective. The DEQ will really only work right if a DBA is employed; neither a DEQ or room treatment can do anything about bass nulls (caused by standing waves)- they can only fix peaks. We're not trying to 'beat physics'; in the case of a DBA we're 'using physics'.

I somewhat agree as I have, in effect a DBA. I use 4 JLA Fathom subs and DEQ employed judiciously and sparingly in concert with the subs yields further improvements since there are still some peaks that require taming. Also IME room treatment is far more than 5% effective especially in more modest sized rooms. The key is to use them to best effect together, they aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Mikem53]

This hobby should not encourage OCD behavior. It is supposed to be fun and enjoyable. It's all, in my view, a question of balance and managing your expectations.

Anything worth doing, is worth overdoing.. Some might consider it a disorder, but I consider it a quest !
Knowing when to actually stop and smell the roses is the part i have trouble with..

 

[Mikem53]

Recently, my system has finally settled in after several major changes to the room setup, preamp and amp changes. Moving my system back to the long wall allowed for better bass extension and cleared up some other issues I didn’t realize existed.
So naturally, I had to try and add a subwoofer into the mix to explore the bottom end “better”. I’ve tried several ways in the past to integrate a sub or to bi-amp the speakers so I could “enhance” the bass depth or output With various systems I had along the way.. Never being satisfied with the results of my admitted sometimes half assed approach.
Much older and a little wiser, thanks to many on here, I made Another attempt to integrate a subwoofer. This time I was able to detect some positive results. When I used the high pass crossover built in the sub which is fixed at 80hz, I noticed my midrange and highs seemed more ”present” and immediate, the soundstage became wider as well. Unfortunately, the bass itself was now blurred and sluggish. A kick drum wasnt much different than a bass guitar note. this is with a 12” sealed SVS SB2000 which I know can be improved on. I’ve researched other subs and was going to try a Rythmik F12G direct servo with many tweaking options, but wanted a sense of what to expect. I have 3 subs and the SVS is the only sealed one that seems better suited for music. my other subs are part of my HT system And go boom boom real well when something explodes but wouldnt be fit for 2 channel music.
Yesterday one of my long term audiophile friends came over and helped to Ground me by Saying I don’t need a sub. That I already had great overall tonality and was just missing some db on the very bottom octave, why upset the balance, detail and coherence I already have ?
Which made me stop and think.. and the Roses do smell good..
Time to enjoy whats already there.. for now.. lol. Less is more and all that..

 

[thedudeabides]

Anything worth doing, is worth overdoing..

In my retirement years, I've come to the conclusion that less is definitely more.

 

[pjwd]

In my retirement years, I've come to the conclusion that less is definitely more.

well Mies van der Rohe postulated that ( I think) but more recently Robert Venturi said less is a bore

post modern or neo modernist - good arguments for both
Phil

 

[PeterA]

well Mies van der Rohe postulated that ( I think) but more recently Robert Venturi said less is a bore

post modern or neo modernist - good arguments for both
Phil

I also think that Mies said "God is in the details". For us perhaps, emotion is in the resolution. When it comes to bass, I have always valued quality over quantity.

 

[sbo6]

I read threads like this and truly wonder if anyone enjoys listening to music or is just distracted by perceived imperfections. IMHO, quite sad and entirely missing the point of this hobby. I hope certain members find their "perfect" bass in their lifetime. But then, I suspect there will be something else that is imperfect.

Nothing wrong with striving for better sonics including bass all the while enjoying the music as it sounds better and better. For many that's what this hobby is all about, the journey and the fruits along the way.

 

[thedudeabides]

I totally agree except for the word "many". Would be an interesting poll but I'm not sure how to phrase the question.