What is it about the bass, that it becomes so robust with after-market cords and conditioners?

[DaveC]

I have also observed that some geart responds well to a change and others? Eh, not so much. Even with the same cord.

Tom

I've seen this too, for example an old class-D amp I have is very sensitive while my SET isn't. Cables still make a difference with the SET but with the class D changes made much larger differences. Different power supplies, different outputs...

 

[NorthStar]

True, true, and VERY true. Everything has a sound signature.

Absolutely NOT true. This characteristic is what makes a bad cable a bad cable, and imo most cables are actually bad cables. If it has an identifiable sonic signature the cable is a failure imo. My top end cables have no identifiable sonic signature.

I have many choices: I can reply to what I'm reading and say honestly what I think.
I can explore even further and discuss the subject with everyone participating.
I can be a simple observant and not reply @ all.

Yes, I am reading this thread...because mainly to see if I can learn something valuable on a subject of interest by a good fair bunch of contributing members.
I decide to reply because of the various philosophies and experiences from various people.

What can I bring of value with my participation? Ask questions, and read the various answers, and experiment myself.

Say we buy a pair of mono block amplifiers; between $5,000 and $50,000
They come with two AC power cords, or four (because some require two per amp).
Are the amp manufacturers providing their designed amps with the best AC power cords, or do they recommend we buy separate ones from a cable manufacturer?

David earlier mentioned solid designed AC power cords (high grade) that cost less than two hundred bucks.
I asked a question yesterday: Are we going to hear a significant sound improvement from one that costs less...say $20
Or an even better sound improvement (say from 0.5% to 5%) with one that costs $2,000 (2 meters long)?

I've seen some AC power cords that cost even more...going in the five digits. @ those prices the'd better improve my bass in my room, make it very very robust. I understand; some mono blocks we can buy for $400,000/pair. There is no way we would connect them with $20 AC power cords.

It reminds me of this: There's a speaker review somewhere, and it is highly praised @ other places too by various audio reviewers. And it's a high-end loudspeaker. But there is a big problem with the ultra hi-end audiofile community; the speakers are just too affordable, they don't cost enough money. So they are discarded completely from the elite map. Next.

I have no problem with that; music is important and price is relevant to that importance. Do you see here my ping pong activity in my brain?
But it's not important. What is is what people are hearing with their own set of ears, and other similar set of philosophical ears. Subjectivity in a real physical world.

If we are to measure AC power cords from say $5 generic PC (three prongs, 10AWG, 1.5 meter long) to $20,000 custom designed AC power cords (three prongs, 6AWG, 2 meters long); are we going to advance in the right direction when it comes to make a real difference that is sound and balanced (financial, performance wise), in providing us with a more robust bass (the subject of the OP's thread - caesar)?

 

[microstrip]

I've seen this too, for example an old class-D amp I have is very sensitive while my SET isn't. Cables still make a difference with the SET but with the class D changes made much larger differences. Different power supplies, different outputs...

I have not experience enough to comment on the SET's, but the old Devialet 200/400 was the most sensitive amplifier I have owned in terms of power cables. You could change its sound balance just changing the power cable. I have not yet made any power cable experiences with the 220Pro, that has a new redesigned power supply.

 

[NorthStar]

Fascinating thread. I've been spending an obscene amount of time auditioning power cables lately. In my system, the differences between any cables are dramatic. Even my wife can often guess which cables I'm using at any moment as I've borrowed her ears many times to help me determine the differences.

The ones that I really like are, unfortunately, incredibly expensive and I'm very hesitant to buy them for that reason (I could buy a high end line or phono stage for the same amount).

I will say that I own (and like) the Audio Art cables that Marty recommended. They are very, very good and reasonably priced.

In general I am a true believer in cables. Like rolling tubes, it always seems to be a tradeoff of some sort as nothing is truly neutral or linear.

Ian, how much for one Audio Art AC power cable (2-meter)? Do they work good with all universe loudspeakers or only/mainly Magico ones?
But Marty doesn't have Magico speakers, so then they work with various brands...good.
______

Roger previously mentioned "expansion of the soundstage" when evaluating and comparing between different brands. And he also mentioned the "tonal balance".
Tom observed different gear responding differently to changes...different AC power cord brands. ...And, even within the same AC brand; so the gear sounds different with the same AC cable.
Dave agreed with Roger's above comment.
______

All in all there is no simple answer here; this is a complex world this audio one with AC power cords.
I like David posts because they are less expensive alternatives for the non-ultra hi-end clientele...like me.
Master Built, Shunyata, Cardas, Opium, Nordost, Monster, MIT, Transparent Audio, AudioQuest, Belkin, ...

Steve had Shunyata cables before, now Master Built, and I believe (trust his ears).
I don't know what Amir uses for AC power cords in his systems, and the ones he recommends and installs in the multi-million dollars custom installations for his very very rich business clients.

Nobody here has the same exact audio gear, the same loudspeakers, the exact same room's acoustics, furniture, dimensions, smell, atmosphere, dust, all particles, books, music genres, music sources (analog, digital playing @ the exact same time in two equal rooms...), the exact same set of ears, attitude, life's philosophy, same exact looking children, same exact water's content, electrical grid, ...all exact same everything.
So, how can we be sure of what one's recommend is good to someone else or a group of someone else?
How can we improve the bass robustness in our own hi-fi stereo system with AC power cord brands that cost less than more?

We all have preferences. I love humanity for that. :b
I have a brother, who is smart; he said once to me that we're good people, and we reap what we plant.

 

[Barry]

Ian, I believe they make a big difference but I find the exercise pointless till gear is settled.... Now, if you choose your dream power cable it might not work optimally when you change a component. I think optimizing cables is extremely tough, so more mileage by diverting funds elsewhere imo.

+1. Great advice.

 

[thedudeabides]

The way I always judged a power cable was if it expanded the soundstage,when comparing others.

That was one of the main things I heard going with SR. Less apparent "noise" (maybe the reason for the expanded soundstage) and better defined mid / low bass were also quite audible.

 

[LL21]

Fascinating thread. I've been spending an obscene amount of time auditioning power cables lately. In my system, the differences between any cables are dramatic. Even my wife can often guess which cables I'm using at any moment as I've borrowed her ears many times to help me determine the differences.

The ones that I really like are, unfortunately, incredibly expensive and I'm very hesitant to buy them for that reason (I could buy a high end line or phono stage for the same amount).

I will say that I own (and like) the Audio Art cables that Marty recommended. They are very, very good and reasonably priced.

In general I am a true believer in cables. Like rolling tubes, it always seems to be a tradeoff of some sort as nothing is truly neutral or linear.

I have to ask the inevitable question, MadFloyd...which ones are the uber expensive ones you really liked? Hey...it IS Whatbestforum after all!

 

[RogerD]

I have many choices: I can reply to what I'm reading and say honestly what I think.
I can explore even further and discuss the subject with everyone participating.
I can be a simple observant and not reply @ all.

Yes, I am reading this thread...because mainly to see if I can learn something valuable on a subject of interest by a good fair bunch of contributing members.
I decide to reply because of the various philosophies and experiences from various people.

What can I bring of value with my participation? Ask questions, and read the various answers, and experiment myself.

Say we buy a pair of mono block amplifiers; between $5,000 and $50,000
They come with two AC power cords, or four (because some require two per amp).
Are the amp manufacturers providing their designed amps with the best AC power cords, or do they recommend we buy separate ones from a cable manufacturer?

David earlier mentioned solid designed AC power cords (high grade) that cost less than two hundred bucks.
I asked a question yesterday: Are we going to hear a significant sound improvement from one that costs less...say $20
Or an even better sound improvement (say from 0.5% to 5%) with one that costs $2,000 (2 meters long)?

I've seen some AC power cords that cost even more...going in the five digits. @ those prices the'd better improve my bass in my room, make it very very robust. I understand; some mono blocks we can buy for $400,000/pair. There is no way we would connect them with $20 AC power cords.

It reminds me of this: There's a speaker review somewhere, and it is highly praised @ other places too by various audio reviewers. And it's a high-end loudspeaker. But there is a big problem with the ultra hi-end audiofile community; the speakers are just too affordable, they don't cost enough money. So they are discarded completely from the elite map. Next.

I have no problem with that; music is important and price is relevant to that importance. Do you see here my ping pong activity in my brain?
But it's not important. What is is what people are hearing with their own set of ears, and other similar set of philosophical ears. Subjectivity in a real physical world.

If we are to measure AC power cords from say $5 generic PC (three prongs, 10AWG, 1.5 meter long) to $20,000 custom designed AC power cords (three prongs, 6AWG, 2 meters long); are we going to advance in the right direction when it comes to make a real difference that is sound and balanced (financial, performance wise), in providing us with a more robust bass (the subject of the OP's thread - caesar)?

Bob, I came across a company that custom makes power cords. If I can find them again,I'll either spec one or build it myself. I would use 10 or 8 awg for the conductors twisted,and 6 awg for ground. I would use a braided shield also. I think I could build it for a 100 bucks.
Should deliver good bass. The large ground pathway is key.

 

[NorthStar]

I have to ask the inevitable question, MadFloyd...which ones are the uber expensive ones you really liked? Hey...it IS Whatbestforum after all!

I'm curious too. And like Lloyd says; "It is WBF here after all."

 

[NorthStar]

Bob, I came across a company that custom makes power cords. If I can find them again,I'll either spec one or build it myself. I would use 10 or 8 awg for the conductors twisted,and 6 awg for ground. I would use a braided shield also. I think I could build it for a 100 bucks.
Should deliver good bass. The large ground pathway is key.

Roger, the uber expensive ones; are they twisted or solid core straight wires?
I would love to see someone invite you to their home and compare few hi-end AC power cords,,,from MasterBuilt, Shunyata, Nordost, Transparent...
It is extremely fascinating to me the steep exploration into audio signal's transmission. ...Here AC power cords.
What I read here stays here, because if I communicate this to my family and friends they wouldn't understand, or they wouldn't talk to me anymore thinking I'm completely yahoo.

Roger, you're from Vega right? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vega ... Vegas, where things stay there. :b
______

P.S. I would love being driven down the strip completely drunk on champagne and cognac with six gorgeous beautiful ones inside the limo's jacuzzi.
...And smoking a big one...Cuban.

 

[DaveC]

Bob, I came across a company that custom makes power cords. If I can find them again,I'll either spec one or build it myself. I would use 10 or 8 awg for the conductors twisted,and 6 awg for ground. I would use a braided shield also. I think I could build it for a 100 bucks.
Should deliver good bass. The large ground pathway is key.

I agree again, another thing to keep in mind is the noise is broadband AC, so a single large diameter cable is going to be limited. It's important to use wire that provides lower AC impedance at higher frequencies, which is why I use litz wire. Litz this size is expensive, you might have good luck using a tinned braid meant for shielding rather than conventional wire.

Many power cables skimp on the ground connection which is much more important than they realize. Even in my small 14g cable the ground is double the size of the 14g hot/neutral wires.

 

[KeithR]

fwiw - Ken Shindo (and now his son) uses $5 skinny grey cords for all his electronics. And dealers recommend against changing them out.

In fact, they have two-prong plugs

 

[treitz3]

To me, that's immaterial. Bob Carver doesn't use anything different and even plugs all of the gear (including his highly regarded Silver 7 and 9 tube amplifiers) into a $10 power strip. That doesn't mean that he's getting optimum power, it just means that he is getting power.

Tom

 

[Nightlord]

P.S. If you actually try a Furutech NCF receptacle there will no longer be any possible way you will still hold the beliefs you currently hold. If you actually have a mind that is open enough to experiment... most of you don't because you think you already know the outcome, but that's some heavy-duty arrogance and is far more faith-based than scientific. So, get that one single receptacle, on the grand scale of things it's a very cheap experiment as resale will be good, put it in your wall feeding your power distributor and come back with a post about how wrong you were.

You're funny. NCF 18E costs above $5000 here. I'd would hardly think that money would be motivated for a big poweramp.

How do you propose to do double-blind bypass fast switched tests of it in any case?

 

[amirm]

So you intuitively know all the laws of physics and have nothing left to learn? This is the problem with people like you and Amir, you think you've absorbed the entirety of the universe's knowledge via your 4-6 year degree and have nothing left to learn. Or you've had some limited experience that you think defines the entire world. You think everyone has the same skills and training for hearing, "we all hear the same". All of this is total garbage and the result of naivety and ignorance.

Our mind is open. We are just not believers in learning about paranormal.

As it happens and to follow up on Bob's question earlier, someone asked me about this measurement the good folks at Shunyata had run to show effectiveness of power cords: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qCK--lRFd0&feature=youtu.be&t=28

I ran the same test with an outlet right next to my service panel: http://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...s/a-c-isolation-transformers.1430/#post-37612

So I actually get a higher rating than what is in the video (1.5 kamps versus 1.1 kamps). But then I make the same measurement at the outlet in my loft:

A massive drop from 1,500 down to 270 amps. As you see, there is no getting around simple laws of physics which we should all know. That messing with the last few feet of wire can't be done absence of what goes on in the other 50 to 100 feet. BTW there are some issues with this measurement which I touch on in my post on ASR Forum.

Anyway, since you have that open mind, would you run the experiment I have outlined for Tom and Micro? That is do a simple blind test for a week to see if you can tell your power cord from another?

 

[amirm]

Also, do you have tools like this Dave?

 

[KeithR]

To me, that's immaterial. Bob Carver doesn't use anything different and even plugs all of the gear (including his highly regarded Silver 7 and 9 tube amplifiers) into a $10 power strip. That doesn't mean that he's getting optimum power, it just means that he is getting power.

Tom

Actually, I've never read of a Shindo owner able to improve upon them. I believe they are some vintage type cord and part of the overall design.

 

[MadFloyd]

Ian, I believe they make a big difference but I find the exercise pointless till gear is settled, which usually isn't the case (don't tell anybody, but there is this guy called madFloyd...)

Now, if you choose your dream power cable it might not work optimally when you change a component. When I first borrowed the Tara, I returned it to my friend. Two months later when I went to his place, I told him something is wrong - haven't you put back the Tara? Indeed he hadn't, and the soundstage was miserable. He put it back in and all was fine. Having said that, liked it, recommended it, bought it (audiophile Bill, audiocrack, Bflowers and many others use these btw), my retrospective recommendation is that it does not work in all systems, and especially that if you are adding more than one you have to be careful that it is not darkening the sound.

I totally agree. I wasn't pursuing power cables but a dealer insisted I try them along with the Ypsilon amps I was auditioning and I ended up taking a big detour in my quest for a preamp.

 

[MadFloyd]

I have to ask the inevitable question, MadFloyd...which ones are the uber expensive ones you really liked? Hey...it IS Whatbestforum after all!

Stage III Kraken.

WBF thread on them here.

 

[Folsom]

This topic is too painfully spun into entirely nothing but misinformation. But I feel inclined to at least provide a modicum of fact.

The last few feet do matter for reasons. The resistance of the cables does affect parameters with mutual factors between the conductors in a single cord especially in a shared space. It's SIMPLE ELECTRONICS to understand that the environment has many more fields to interact in an area with many cords. This isn't complicated stuff, and it doesn't require tools to know it. This is 101, maybe 100 level. On a more complicated side low resistance is a double edged sword at times, causing problems more often than you'd expect.

If anyone wants to know the facts of what's going on, Folsom is willing to entertain. You won't like some answers, they are counter to what you thought you knew. PM me, or I'll address as many as I can in a closed topic.