What turntables do you use? Pictures would be nice as well :-)

[PeterA]

Thanks Myles. I've just discovered this site and have read that people are moving over from Audiogon. I would sum up the difference between the 9" SME V and the V-12 like this: It is like going from a compact two-driver, two-way speaker to a 3 or 4 driver, three-way speaker, without any loss of coherence or seamlessness. Extension both up and down increased as well as the retrieval of low level information and micro dynamics.

This latter quality could be from the longer length resulting in a flatter arc and thus lower distortion. I used a MINT LP arc-type protractor to align both the V and V-12 and the shape of the curve and the overhang (distance of the arc trace to the spindle hole) are dramatically different (see first photo below). Finally, I was able to adjust the counterweights of the V-12 arm making it very heavy. This allowed me to slide the weight very close to the pivot point of the arm (see second photo below). The added weight of the counterweight and the longer arm put more downward force on the bearing and the closer distance of the weights decreases the moment of inertia of the arm, both, at least in theory, improving performance.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Hmmmm.....first time I've seen that protractor! So many of them around nowadays

My impressions were that the 12 inch VPI arm has almost all the airiness and resolution of the Air Tangent linear tracking arm with better low end. Linear tracking arms however still have this quality of being able to play records that they have no right to with little to no noise. But oh those pumps...

 

[cjfrbw]

Some comments from users at AV guide:

http://www.avguide.com/forums/sme-model-3012-review

Ken Kessler wrote a review a few years back.

SME states the 12 version of the 30 is 20 percent stiffer. Stiffness and density are the features SME regards as important.

As for the 12 arm, it allows the higher mass/ lower compliance thing that a lot of antiquarians crave for a more tape like presentation, not sure if the reasons are strictly about the lower arc distortion of the longer arm.

It makes sense that the stretch 30 would sound a bit better even with a shorter arm due to the increased density/mass and stiffness cited by SME.

I think for some kind of strange reason, Kessler still likes the 30/2. I have even read somewhere that there are users who like the older second generation power supply, but this is not in agreement with the AV guide users, who believe the newest power supplies are better.

I think anybody with the heavier platter SME 20 either stretch or not and upward is doing quite well in the turntable department.

 

[steve williams]

Carl

what do you mean by the stretch version. What's different about it

 

[cjfrbw]

Carl

what do you mean by the stretch version. What's different about it

Steve, a couple of years ago SME made versions of the 20 and 30 that were longer for 12 inch arms. Previously, the shorter 20 and 30 only allowed geometry and mountings for 9 inch arms.

The larger 30 for 12 inch arms is also heavier and stiffer.

There are now quite an array of 20's and 30's around so SME, who used to have a pretty straightforward arsenal, now have many different distinctions with age, platter weight, tonearm size, power supply etc. etc.

 

[mep]

What are the differences between the V12 and the 312s?

 

[cjfrbw]

Mark, I have never had either arm, maybe some SME expert could chime in. I am happy with the 10 inch arm shoe horned onto the SME 30/2, so no desire for either the stretch 30 table or a 12 inch arm.

 

[PeterA]

mep, I'm no SME expert, but this is what I understand. There are two main differences between the SME V-12 and 312S arms.

First, the V-12, like the standard V has dynamic VTF. It uses a damped spring to set tracking force once the arm is balanced. The 312S uses static VTF only, ie. you set the tracking force by moving the counterweight in and out. I once did a test on my SME V arm and ended up preferring the dynamic tracking force slightly. The sound was smoother on warped LPs because the dynamic VTF dampens the vertical movement of the cantilever.

Second, the 312S has a detachable headshell. This allows for easy swapping of cartridges, but perhaps even more importantly, it allows for azimuth adjustability. The penalty for this is a slightly less rigid headshell and slightly greater weight at the cartridge requiring the counterweight to move slightly away from the pivot causing a greater moment of inertia. The V-12 has a fixed headshell.

The price difference is quite substantial. I have not heard the 312S and do not know if there is a sonic difference or if it is worth the extra cost. I will add though, that the V-12 is substantially better that the standard 9" SME V. If one's table can accommodate a 12" arm, the 312S costs about the same as the V and I would much prefer the former.

 

[andi]

Hi,

the V12 bases on the SME V (topmodel) and the 312 bases on the 309 (entry level) arm.

BG
Andreas

 

[PeterA]

That is correct, however, the 312S has the same bearings and internal wire as the V-12, while that is not the case with the 9" arms. I believe the 312S is closer to the SME IV arm, not the SME 309, while indeed the V-12 is just a longer version of the V arm. Another difference between the 312S and V-12 is that they have a slightly different geometry. I think the offset angles for the respective headshells are different.

 

[vinylphilemag]

This is my recently upgraded front end: SME 30/12, SME V-12, Air Tight Supreme. It replaced my former SME 10A with V arm and PC-1 cartridge. It is all sitting on a Vibraplane preloaded with a steel plate ballast weighing 136 lbs, for a total weight of 400 lbs on the top shelf of my DIY rack. Isolation and resolution are superb. This is a very neutral and speed accurate platform for the cartridge.
I did a very slow, deliberate comparison first between the SME 10 and 30/12 using my old SME V arm and PC-1 cartridge. Then I switched arms to the V-12 with the PC-1. Finally, I switched cartridges to the Supreme. I listened to each stage for about 10 days to fully understand what each component contributes to the overall sound.

View attachment 3972View attachment 3973

Very nice! If/when the time comes to replace my Forsell Air Reference, an SME 30/2 or 30/12 are near the top of my list. I have a looooong way to go, and many shekels to save before that happens though!

PS that reminds me, I need to post a photo or two of my Forsell to this thread. Soon!

 

[MylesBAstor]

Very nice! If/when the time comes to replace my Forsell Air Reference, an SME 30/2 or 30/12 are near the top of my list. I have a looooong way to go, and many shekels to save before that happens though!

PS that reminds me, I need to post a photo or two of my Forsell to this thread. Soon!

The one thing that struck me from the first day heard the SME table was just how quiet is was. It was like the noise floor dropped through the basement

 

[ack]

Hmmmm.....first time I've seen that protractor! So many of them around nowadays

The MintLP? That's the one I also use, custom-made to every supported arm, and there are many on the list. Old product.

 

[Stump]

Clearaudio Innovation Graham Phantom II Supreme Clearaudio Stradivari V2 Phono Cartridge Clearaudio Balance Plus Phonostage
Happy with the sound..

 

[MylesBAstor]

View attachment 10591
Clearaudio Innovation Graham Phantom II Supreme Clearaudio Stradivari V2 Phono Cartridge Clearaudio Balance Plus Phonostage
Happy with the sound..

Nice effects! Took me a minute to figure it out I'm going red patter...duh!

 

[jazdoc]

View attachment 10591
Clearaudio Innovation Graham Phantom II Supreme Clearaudio Stradivari V2 Phono Cartridge Clearaudio Balance Plus Phonostage
Happy with the sound..

That's a beaut! Enjoy!

 

[Shaffer]

I have a boring, old VPI HW19 mkIII with a bone stock Rega RB600 arm. The 'table's suspension is tweaked a bit to eliminate as much motor noise as possible and to better the stock TT's somewhat hazy presentation, a lack of focus if you will. I run an AT33PTG/II cart and just picked up an elliptical stylus version of the same [ie. AT33EV] as a backup. Nothing terribly thrilling, but it is setup well, if I may say so myself.

I hope to upgrade the setup in a year. Next summer. First and foremost, I'm buying an Ayre phono stage.

 

[Dimfer]

just wondering why JackD is absent from this thread.. he has killer analog setups

 

[Joe Galbraith]

Walker Audio Proscenium with Black Diamond upgrades (except for arm). Using Allnic Puritas and Bluelectric Magic Diamond carts

 

[Dre_J]

Walker Audio Proscenium with Black Diamond upgrades (except for arm). Using Allnic Puritas and Bluelectric Magic Diamond carts

Beautiful table Joe. Did you get the new black diamonds added yet?

BTW: I spy "The Love For Three Oranges Suite / Scythian Suite" on the floor. I ordered the Classic reissue almost four weeks ago and still haven't received my copy... I have a mono original copy but want to hear what all the fuss is about with the stereo reissue. I'm told the reissue "should" sound better but you never know till you try. And try I will, if my copy ever shows up!

Dre