Totally agree. There is nothing wrong with ARC's products, they have a strong following. There was something wrong with the way the business was being managed financially, and that can be corrected (and likely is).
Whither Audio Research
- Thread starter davidavdavid
- Start date
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
IMO they probably failed as it too way to long for them to replace the flagship models that ARC was always known for. THey have become a HE value rather than a leader. THe REF 10, REF 10 Phono etc. sold like crazy and they were one of the leaders of best in class and then nothing for a very long time. The replacement for the REF 750 series which had lots of failures and a suitable new top end preamp . phono and reliable "super" amp IMO let dozens of thier best clients move to other brands. Once this happens its almost impossible to get them back.
I have well over a dozen clients that had this gear and moved on. FYI these type of clients do not grow on trees. ARC had them and lost them. not all of them , but a bunch of them. I go back to Bill and Nancy in the 70's ARC was the leader and they have not been IMO for quite a while. I know Trent wanted to change and replace the whole product offering at both ends of the spectrum , but alas he never got there. Im not accountant and don't want to be but IMO if they do not retake that position they wont make it.
I have well over a dozen clients that had this gear and moved on. FYI these type of clients do not grow on trees. ARC had them and lost them. not all of them , but a bunch of them. I go back to Bill and Nancy in the 70's ARC was the leader and they have not been IMO for quite a while. I know Trent wanted to change and replace the whole product offering at both ends of the spectrum , but alas he never got there. Im not accountant and don't want to be but IMO if they do not retake that position they wont make it.
Interesting comments. People complain about new models coming out that obsolete the old, in sence, making you spend more money for new stuff. Juxtapose that too, if you don't make new stuff, people are going to buy something else.
It could be surmised if those people desire to spend and buy new stuff all the time, you can get them back.
Elliot, this is a well reasoned reply from you who has tremendous industry experience and deals with customers who are ready to part with their money on expensive equipment. Dealers and distributors are going to make the transition successful as the first law of marketing implies that the dogs gotta like the dog food for something to move off the shelf. The dealers and distributors will have to get behind the new ARC.
At the risk of being called stupid again on an open forum where clients and industry professionals can openly speculate and respectively surmise--- I believe innovation at the top is apparently lacking vis a vis other top contenders as stated- you only have to look at companies like CH or Mola Mola on the other end to see where user interfaces and technology has taken the hobby. ARC has not been there and its a global marketplace.
Additionally, it is clear to me that operating expense has to be managed. The only reason you fail is you don't sell enough ,what you do sell is not profitable or there's nothing to sell because you don't have operation under control ( cash, inventory ,people, or infrastructure).
On infrastructure - is ARC staying in situ ? or are they moving. Their building is evidently for lease- moving is going to be pretty disruptive for them to get re-aligned.
https://www.commercialexchange.com/listing/38088747/6655-Wedgwood-Rd-N-Maple-Grove-MN-55311
I'm a big ARC fan and have own something from ARC for last 40 years. I wish them well ---I routinely deal with cross border acquisitions that are orders of magnitude greater than this deal. There will be lots of effort required.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
They were always in my audio career and life one of if not the best products available for a very very long time. They still make excellent gear, I mean no insult however they are not in the same place or position as they were in the past. IMO the demise can be followed to not replacing the enormously successful REF 10 gear. They made lots of errors IMO with the GS stuff and confused cleints with the ref gear etc. In my opinion though they lost the luster and the bragging rights that the old ARC company always had. IN doing so they allowed other high end companies to move past them and sell large amounts of competing gear. This trend has been around for a long time. Companies falter and soon after someone is eating their lunch.
If you watch Fremer’s new video, you will see they just leased space from a tenant next door who moved out. Val tells me he is committed to staying in Minnesota. I think it would be hard to replace the talent they have there.
Shoot first, ask questions later? Maybe he was there on his own accord. Transparency is a good thing.
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In the Lighthouse report to the court it appeared that there was an unresolved issue regarding the lease. TWS pointed to an email agreement on when rent on the new space would start. The lease holder pointed to the fact that there was no formal signed agreement. On the old space, Lighthouse had paid the rent while they held the assets, but some back rent was not yet paid (from before Lighthouse took control) at the time of the final report to the court. The leaseholder may be applying the only pressure he has available in an attempt to negotiate for the back payments. I hope it is resolved soon.
Edit: Or the leaseholder could just be trying to squeeze the new owners, considering the lease broken due to the unpaid rent, and knowing that the expense of moving could be a toxic shock to the already undernourished cash flow. Sigh …
The current ARC website has job listings for electrical engineer, service technician, and solder slinger positions.
Edit: Or the leaseholder could just be trying to squeeze the new owners, considering the lease broken due to the unpaid rent, and knowing that the expense of moving could be a toxic shock to the already undernourished cash flow. Sigh …
The current ARC website has job listings for electrical engineer, service technician, and solder slinger positions.
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Anyone who took the time to watch the MF video would know why MF was in the area. He tells the story early in the video.
I cannot fault a company for not releasing new models on a regular basis. I want a company's top design thinking in their top-of-the-line products. If nothing else ingenious comes to the mind of the designer I see no reason to release a new product just for the purpose of hyperbolically promoting a minor sonic improvement.
I, for one, do not care for computer networked interfaces and control systems on analog audio components. I do not want to connect an analog line stage to a computer network.
I, for one, do not care for computer networked interfaces and control systems on analog audio components. I do not want to connect an analog line stage to a computer network.
Surely. But we also want a company that stays in business, independently of our wishes. ARC is a company with large volumes of sales and an large distribution network, they must follow the market rules if they want to be successful.
Our VTL Siegfried II has a sophisticated computer controlled system to check permanently its operation. It can be connected to a computer to perform checkups and maintenance. Currently is is using RS232 , next version will surely use the RJ45 network.
I hear you Ron, but ARC had come up with the four layer circuit board they put in the Ref160 amps, a big step up from Ref150.. As Elliot said, nothing after Ref10 offerings for the top line products. Seemed it could have been basis for an upgrade of the flagship? (Was that also used in Ref6?)
They let the 50th Anniversary come and go with NOTHING to memorialize that event. As the Ref10 were the replacement for limited edition 40th anniversary model, that meant 10 years nothing offered at the top, when previously they’d followed a 4-5 year life cycle.
I feared for the brand watching the 50th anniversary come and go. They chose to focus in lifestyle products which would be fine if they’d shown trickle down tech learned in the top-of-line offerings. I’d likely have been customer for 50th Anniversary products, which if it had happened I may not have found myself willing to embark on a journey with Rhapsody and move to Pilium (a significant improvement vs. my ARC kit.)
ARC will always have place in my audiophile heart as it was my first exposure to hi-end gear way back in mid 70’s. And it was where I went when I returned to the hobby after about a 20yr hiatus.
Long live ARC - may they find their best efforts lie ahead.
They let the 50th Anniversary come and go with NOTHING to memorialize that event. As the Ref10 were the replacement for limited edition 40th anniversary model, that meant 10 years nothing offered at the top, when previously they’d followed a 4-5 year life cycle.
I feared for the brand watching the 50th anniversary come and go. They chose to focus in lifestyle products which would be fine if they’d shown trickle down tech learned in the top-of-line offerings. I’d likely have been customer for 50th Anniversary products, which if it had happened I may not have found myself willing to embark on a journey with Rhapsody and move to Pilium (a significant improvement vs. my ARC kit.)
ARC will always have place in my audiophile heart as it was my first exposure to hi-end gear way back in mid 70’s. And it was where I went when I returned to the hobby after about a 20yr hiatus.
Long live ARC - may they find their best efforts lie ahead.
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When you say "They let the 50th Anniversary come and go ..." keep in mind who is 'they'.
The whole Quadrivio --> Fine Sounds Group --> McIntosh Group 'transition' across 12 years (2008-2020) was a struggle of direction with design for a while put upon ARC from Italy (Livio Cucuzza et al) and the subsequent primacy ($) of McIntosh over ARC. Finally ending in 2020 (the 50th Anniversary year) with the return of Trent Suggs.
In an attempt to appeal to a new group to expand their customer base, time and money went into the more affordable entry level 'Foundation Series' below their Reference products in 2016. Methinks that decision came out of the World of McIntosh who was engaging in a similar lifestyle range of products.
The Ref 10 (2012) is two Ref 5SEs and the Ref Phono 10 is two REF 2SEs. The 10's lineage of the Ref 5 (2009), Ref 5se, Ref Phono 2 and Ref Phono 2se traces back to Ward Fiebiger, ARCs Senior Design Engineer and WZJ's right hand man -- he had been with ARC almost as long as ARC itself. Ward's untimely passing five years ago was a huge loss for the company -- in a sense a loss (or at least a wavering) of continuity of technology heritage. They've had designs he had banked for the future but innovative tech guys like that don't fall out of the sky. He has been hard to replace.
That may account, at least partly, for what you're describing.
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People say the anniversary preamp was better than the Ref10. I'm not sure as I have not heard either one.
WBF's version of rubber necking not unlike celebrating someone's death. A very sad statement on our society in general.
I own the Anniversary and I compared it with the Ref10 several times. The Ref10 seems more detailed and perhaps has a little better bass definition, but lacks the oomph of the former model. They share the same printed circuit boards and circuits, but the REF lacks the four beer bottle size white Teflon capacitors. Some wiring was also changed. I have sold it once, but could not resist o buy another specimen some time later.
IMO it sounds much better with balanced input amplifiers.
We should note that the whole building is not for lease, just suite 115, which happens to be ARC's address.
Also look at the date: 18 May 2023. So that is the month that the receivership event happened.
The property owner may have already negotiated a new lease with Cora and the real estate websites just have not been updated yet.
Speaking of not being updated: the ARC Linkedin page could use some updating, and the Wikipedia entry needs updating (and a lot of help.)
Respectfully I would not condemn WBF in its entirety with that view. That view seems to be limited to Gregadd and a subgroup of WBF, not WBF itself.
Elliot G.
Industry Expert
I understand your point Ron however the audio business is very competitive, people do pay attention to what's new and hot ( whether this is justified or not) and when clients come in to a store or a show they want to know what's new. In this case the ARC 40th anniversary was a limited run of , if my memory is correct was 250 units, and they sold very quickly and they made even more to supply the demand. Later on they decided to release a REF 10 becasue of the success of the 40th anniversary. ARC has always been a leader and made products at or near the state of the art. I am not trying to start a discussion of thier place only to make the point that this was always thier mission statement. Bill Johnson believed in making this type of gear. So when they went a decade without releasing a new reference top of the line, state of the art contender for a wide variety of reasons they started on the wrong path . You may not like new releases but the public does.
Every High End copmpany I can think of is trying to make better product ALL the time.There is such a thing as useful market life of a product and we can argue what that time frame is but it exists and it important.It exists in golf clubs, watches, cars, cameras etc.This life cycle is the heart beat of business, period. In ARC 's case look at thier product history all the way back to the 1970's. Customers like this. People want to get improved gear. The best customers there are are the ones you already have!!! So when there is no new flagship product two things happen.Customers don't buy anything or they change brands. In every industry brand loyalty is a significant thing and its obvious. Its very obvious in audio.