World Debut: Vertere Reference Tonearm

Oh and I should add that this arm is not going to bowl you over at first listen. But the more you listen, the more you recognize what the Vertere does right. Definitely not hi-fi-ish.

this is an important factor. I tend to raise this subject often, within the scope of the idea of the learning curve of sonic reproduction. This, in the context of the listener/audiophile, and the reviewer. hearing being function that can be taught. to learn. It also depends upon the will of the given person to learn. To understand that change is the norm and static conditionals are the odd man out. therefore, to learn that a given state of understanding of sonic reproduction is not a state of finality, unless the person involved, with their plastic learning capacity, will it to be so. Willing it via desire and emotional directives, which may or may not have any basis in logic function.

That there never is a final answer; merely a given condition in the given journey.

early in the game, the mind tends to see gross exaggeration as a form of detail in the signal. And since these exaggerations are distortions of a sort, they are entirely obvious. Like the so-called mainstream's fascination with big breasted women with over accentuated features and behaviors.

A trend that began with the computerization of televisions in the CRT days, was to have a setting on the given television that was called 'vivid', which grossly over accentuated differentials.

This was created and implemented due to human perception systems and how they work, these parameters and internal systems...how they function in the given human as an unconscious aspect of existence and life projection.

That these gross differentials and exaggerated differentials in the minutiae of the video signal, as distorted by the 'vivid' setting on the given television, would be what it takes for the potential buyer in the large store..to separate the in-situ television from the rest. To live in a moment of a '5 minute romance', and then take that given TV home, as a purchase.

We tend to live that way, to some degree or another and the specific mind and body's awareness of self and potentials for rumination and change, will either move that person forward from there, or they will be frozen in that state of development. Some move faster, some move slower, we learn and decide how we learn, at different paces and in different ways, regarding path and results.

In the audiophile world, this situation also exists, in it's own way. since the vast majority of humanity sits in these sort of bell curves of development, this means that the greater mass of audiophiles will not be at the highest level of refinement in audio presentation and aural understanding. It most specifically does not mean that smaller group (outside the norm/average bell curve of audiophiles) of well learned and accomplished audiophiles will have tons of money to buy expensive audio gear, either.

That it would be a mistake to idealize that buyers of expensive audio gear are automatically, due to their capacity to buy expensive audio gear.. that they are automatically accomplished listeners.

This bears out in the analysis of high end riding bicycles, and who buys them, and their associated paraphernalia. Novice bike riders who are well heeled, cash wise, buy the most expensive gear, but have no idea how to bring it to a maximum performance level, as that skill does not reside within them. But that the money required to buy a bunch of stuff, did reside within their capacity. That a serious and accomplished bike rider does not need all that expensive gear and paraphernalia to outclass the novice. And that there is, due to the cash orientation, no way to correlate the expensive biking gear with inherent capacity for that gear to be the best there is for bike riding or for riders.

Due to this overall situation, the novices and the expert bikers intermingle at the top of the bicycle pyramid of expense and quality.

The audio and audiophile world is much the same.

It is also the opposite side of the coin, that in the bicycle business, the novices and their ridiculous amount of coin inserted into the bike and gear procurement process, is what allows the bicycle business to survive and innovate, to be around and in business....for the serious bikers to be able to purchase gear that works for them.

My point, circling back the comparison to the vivid setting on the TV and the reasons behind it..... is that one of the indicators that a piece of equipment is doing what it should be doing, is that it can be very understated in sonic attributes, regarding initial assessment.
 
I use to cycle at a pretty high level , so i m gonna step in.:D
The big difference with cycling at a high level and high end at a high "expensive" level is that cycling fast can be measured , in other words one just passes the novice with the expensive bike and leave him behind gasping for air .
In high end audio ,a high soundquality level can not be measured properly by any measure so anybody can make any claim and get a way with it pretty much .
No one can bring proper evidence to prove otherwise
 
I use to cycle at a pretty high level , so i m gonna step in.:D
The big difference with cycling at a high level and high end at a high "expensive" level is that cycling fast can be measured , in other words one just passes the novice with the expensive bike and leave him behind gasping for air .
In high end audio ,a high soundquality level can not be measured properly by any measure so anybody can make any claim and get a way with it pretty much .
No one can bring proper evidence to prove otherwise

Therein lies part of our quandary.

The seller of a form of belief and projection, in the audio world... can stand beside the seller and creator of a product that is designed toward a better form of sonic truth,and the masses will follow the dancing fabrication more than they will follow the one that hews toward a greater sonic truth. Human history, as a series of situations and as results... has repeatedly show this to be so. That this is the norm, not the exception.

Since our models are not completely fleshed out, in ether measurement or of the model of human hearing, and most importantly..it's expression in the given person... this situation brings us to what is still remaining as an intractable quandary, where might seems to make right. For the more base of (and in) people will emerge and try to project their ideals in forcing a decision and answer. That they will try and make this projected opinion and stance of theirs..take center stage.

Thus, high end audio can, many times, project some middling form of higher level mediocrity - as being the best. Which works for the 'bell curve'-centric well heeled audiophile. Not always true, but it is so, to some degree.
 
Sorry to say but the stethoscope test generically applied to turntables is a good joke unless you apply it to the vinyl disk and the stylus. Many people managed to destroy good turntables just blindly killing all vibrations in a turntable, forgetting that most of the time they are simple reflecting this energy to parts of the turntable where it will really affect its performance. Do you remember when IAR found that the Oracle was 634 times better than the Linn Sondek? :)

Energy created by the stylus/groove relationship and how it conduits or dissipates thru the 'tables structure is a very different monster (although all are important) compared to inner noise reproduction (or environmental noise) from motors or bearings, and how an entire structure effectively deals with vibrational dissipation (or conversely, how some "change" vibrational characteristics rather than minimize). Noise and vibration that enters the platter, without reservation, will ALWAYS have a negative effect on vinyl reproduction.

So, perhaps a joke to you, but to my ears it highlights all the tell-tale signs that may effect potential performance. In every case in which I've tested a turntable with inner structural noise, such as motor, a bearing noise, and even environment noise transmission, the 'table in question always failed to demonstrate the kind of performance in which I associate with the very best turntables. In other words, I'm looking to minimize or eliminate interior noise because I wanted to eliminate or minimize vinyl noise, grain, increase focus, add layering & depth of field, and minimize pinching the entire dynamic envelope.

It's a proven system to my ears, hence, I trust my steth and my ears more than I trust the word of most audiophiles and reviewers.

But that's just me, you can put your trust ...

The Tinner Ear Report

... another joke reference?


tb1
 
this is an important factor. I tend to raise this subject often, within the scope of the idea of the learning curve of sonic reproduction. This, in the context of the listener/audiophile, and the reviewer. hearing being function that can be taught. to learn. It also depends upon the will of the given person to learn. To understand that change is the norm and static conditionals are the odd man out. therefore, to learn that a given state of understanding of sonic reproduction is not a state of finality, unless the person involved, with their plastic learning capacity, will it to be so. Willing it via desire and emotional directives, which may or may not have any basis in logic function.

That there never is a final answer; merely a given condition in the given journey.

early in the game, the mind tends to see gross exaggeration as a form of detail in the signal. And since these exaggerations are distortions of a sort, they are entirely obvious. Like the so-called mainstream's fascination with big breasted women with over accentuated features and behaviors.

A trend that began with the computerization of televisions in the CRT days, was to have a setting on the given television that was called 'vivid', which grossly over accentuated differentials.

This was created and implemented due to human perception systems and how they work, these parameters and internal systems...how they function in the given human as an unconscious aspect of existence and life projection.

That these gross differentials and exaggerated differentials in the minutiae of the video signal, as distorted by the 'vivid' setting on the given television, would be what it takes for the potential buyer in the large store..to separate the in-situ television from the rest. To live in a moment of a '5 minute romance', and then take that given TV home, as a purchase.

We tend to live that way, to some degree or another and the specific mind and body's awareness of self and potentials for rumination and change, will either move that person forward from there, or they will be frozen in that state of development. Some move faster, some move slower, we learn and decide how we learn, at different paces and in different ways, regarding path and results.

In the audiophile world, this situation also exists, in it's own way. since the vast majority of humanity sits in these sort of bell curves of development, this means that the greater mass of audiophiles will not be at the highest level of refinement in audio presentation and aural understanding. It most specifically does not mean that smaller group (outside the norm/average bell curve of audiophiles) of well learned and accomplished audiophiles will have tons of money to buy expensive audio gear, either.

That it would be a mistake to idealize that buyers of expensive audio gear are automatically, due to their capacity to buy expensive audio gear.. that they are automatically accomplished listeners.

This bears out in the analysis of high end riding bicycles, and who buys them, and their associated paraphernalia. Novice bike riders who are well heeled, cash wise, buy the most expensive gear, but have no idea how to bring it to a maximum performance level, as that skill does not reside within them. But that the money required to buy a bunch of stuff, did reside within their capacity. That a serious and accomplished bike rider does not need all that expensive gear and paraphernalia to outclass the novice. And that there is, due to the cash orientation, no way to correlate the expensive biking gear with inherent capacity for that gear to be the best there is for bike riding or for riders.

Due to this overall situation, the novices and the expert bikers intermingle at the top of the bicycle pyramid of expense and quality.

The audio and audiophile world is much the same.

It is also the opposite side of the coin, that in the bicycle business, the novices and their ridiculous amount of coin inserted into the bike and gear procurement process, is what allows the bicycle business to survive and innovate, to be around and in business....for the serious bikers to be able to purchase gear that works for them.

My point, circling back the comparison to the vivid setting on the TV and the reasons behind it..... is that one of the indicators that a piece of equipment is doing what it should be doing, is that it can be very understated in sonic attributes, regarding initial assessment.

---- I truly enjoyed reading that great post, thanks! :b
 
I'm still trying to get my head around this description by Gary and if he or someone else can explain it in simple terms, I would appreciate it (no implied criticism of arm, its price or design philosophy): "First, it has different length vertically and horizontally, and hence effective mass in the horizontal plane is different from the effective mass vertically."
TIA.
 
Therein lies part of our quandary.

The seller of a form of belief and projection, in the audio world... can stand beside the seller and creator of a product that is designed toward a better form of sonic truth,and the masses will follow the dancing fabrication more than they will follow the one that hews toward a greater sonic truth. Human history, as a series of situations and as results... has repeatedly show this to be so. That this is the norm, not the exception.

Since our models are not completely fleshed out, in ether measurement or of the model of human hearing, and most importantly..it's expression in the given person... this situation brings us to what is still remaining as an intractable quandary, where might seems to make right. For the more base of (and in) people will emerge and try to project their ideals in forcing a decision and answer. That they will try and make this projected opinion and stance of theirs..take center stage.

Thus, high end audio can, many times, project some middling form of higher level mediocrity - as being the best. Which works for the 'bell curve'-centric well heeled audiophile. Not always true, but it is so, to some degree.

Daniel Levitan Our Brain On Music.
 
I'm still trying to get my head around this description by Gary and if he or someone else can explain it in simple terms, I would appreciate it (no implied criticism of arm, its price or design philosophy): "First, it has different length vertically and horizontally, and hence effective mass in the horizontal plane is different from the effective mass vertically."
TIA.

IIRC correctly, that's a function of where the two bearings are located. Perhaps I'm wrong and Gary will correct me. It's much easier to understand seeing the arm up close and personal. :)
 
I'm still trying to get my head around this description by Gary and if he or someone else can explain it in simple terms, I would appreciate it (no implied criticism of arm, its price or design philosophy): "First, it has different length vertically and horizontally, and hence effective mass in the horizontal plane is different from the effective mass vertically."
TIA.

Same here!
 
I use to cycle at a pretty high level , so i m gonna step in.:D
The big difference with cycling at a high level and high end at a high "expensive" level is that cycling fast can be measured , in other words one just passes the novice with the expensive bike and leave him behind gasping for air .
In high end audio ,a high soundquality level can not be measured properly by any measure so anybody can make any claim and get a way with it pretty much .
No one can bring proper evidence to prove otherwise

I wonder what would be the high end equivalent of Lance Armstrong?:D
 
I wonder what would be the high end equivalent of Lance Armstrong?:D

Well I'd say that half of audiophiles have taken drugs...oops you meant PEDs :)
 
Because no one has the balls to build it?? :rolleyes:

Perhaps no HiFi company can cheat the public for that long, they would have been bankrupt long ago :cool:
 
Well I'm looking forward to when the dust settles. How does it stack up against the best Graham, Durand, Kuzma, Reed pivoted arms...all within the 5-10k range save for the Telos Lincoln Log ;)
 
Perhaps no HiFi company can cheat the public for that long, they would have been bankrupt long ago :cool:

Just as an aside: Did you know that the United States American president's airplane,
the Air Force One has some counterfeit parts in it? Yes it does as a matter of real fact.
...And the same with his personal helicopter.

Many airplanes of the entire world industry have counterfeit parts in them. And the same with many cars, with counterfeit brake pads just as one example.
And what does it do? ...Saves money (from buying them from China), and kills people.
...And the same is true with the sales of counterfeit medication pills from ebay, and even from drugstores and doctor's offices from all over the world.
{You can google "Counterfeit goods from China".}

Like I said; it is totally off topic, but somehow related if we only knew which parts are used (where they're coming from).

____________

BOT: And Air Force One is also the name of that TechDAS TT's platter ....
How much is that Vertere Reference Tonearm again?
 
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Well I'm looking forward to when the dust settles. How does it stack up against the best Graham, Durand, Kuzma, Reed pivoted arms...all within the 5-10k range save for the Telos Lincoln Log ;)

Throw in the Schroeder, SME 12 inch, Ikeda, Thales, Continuum.....gotta a table that'll mount 12 arms? :)
 
Just as an aside: Did you know that the United States American president's airplane,
the Air Force One has some counterfeit parts in it? Yes it does as a matter of real fact.
...And the same with his personal helicopter.

Many airplanes of the entire world industry have counterfeit parts in them. And the same with many cars, with counterfeit brake pads just as one example.
And what does it do? ...Saves money (from buying them from China), and kills people.
...And the same is true with the sales of counterfeit medication pills from ebay, and even from drugstores and doctor's offices from all over the world.
{You can google "Counterfeit goods from China".}

Like I said; it is totally off topic, but somehow related if we only knew which parts are used (where they're coming from).

____________

BOT: And Air Force One is also the name of that TechDAS TT's platter ....
How much is that Vertere Reference Tonearm again?

I hear you. There has been a big furore over some of the Australian armed forces combat clothing was outsourced to China to save $$. A large % of them fell apart.
 

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