Would you pay a consultant to set up your system

bgupton

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Sep 23, 2014
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One problem that would seem to be a concern....say one hire's the expensive set-up guy and you really don't like the result. Since a lot of what this hobby is about (seems) is personal taste, I would suspect this could lead to some very unpleasant scenarios. The other issue is the fact that there would seem to be a question as to whether your set-up expert fully understands the gear that you are installing. The dealer of said gear would likely have some experience with that same gear, a non dealer rep, perhaps not so much. OTOH, I do know that with the Linn table, for example, there are a few 'go to' experts that do travel around and do the "fettling" ( final set-up) of the deck, and they are highly sought after.

This is a good point and one that Stirling (my setup guy from www.AudioSystemsOptimized.com since it was my post on anther site that started this thread) takes into account.

I personally prefer a more immersive 3Dimensional soundstage. It takes a lot of tweaking and listening to balance that desire without losing other things I also value. Stirling was easily here 30+ hours for the $2500 I spent making sure the sound was EXACTLY what I wanted.

Ultimately the decision to seek out expertise is a personal one. That said, I feel sorry for those who have the hubris to believe they've already figured it all out but good for them. :)
 

sbo6

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This is a good point and one that Stirling (my setup guy from www.AudioSystemsOptimized.com since it was my post on anther site that started this thread) takes into account.

I personally prefer a more immersive 3Dimensional soundstage. It takes a lot of tweaking and listening to balance that desire without losing other things I also value. Stirling was easily here 30+ hours for the $2500 I spent making sure the sound was EXACTLY what I wanted.

Ultimately the decision to seek out expertise is a personal one. That said, I feel sorry for those who have the hubris to believe they've already figured it all out but good for them. :)

Personally I feel sorry for those that have the audacity to believe that at $85 they are getting some pro to tune their room and it's a good deal. Info is on the web, tools are free (such as REW) all you need is time and you save a boatload of $. :)
 

jeromelang

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Dec 26, 2011
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jeromelang, Could you be a bit more specific?

For years now I've been advocating "refreshing" optical disc transports prior to playing.
Jim Smith advocates "refreshing" dac instead in his tip #121.

..if you ever noticed how much faster your computor runs for a while after being rebooted, you should know that the computor in some dacs and cd players also benefit from files being shut down and then reopened....

He went on to describe his experiences with dacs from separate well-known companies that defintely benefited sonically from rebooting or "refreshing" whatever you want to call it.


....the improvement after rebooting was rather surprising, considering the prices of these components....




I've since learnt that both the transport and the dac need "refreshing".

Further more, the sequence on which component to power up first and when to load the disc into the transport are both audibly important too.

It's an issue that affects all digital playback regardless of whether it is optical disc based transport/dac combi, pc based combi, or integrated hdd based playback system being used and whatever digital interface (USB, i2s, HDMI, FireWire, ST Optical, SPDIF,...) is being utilised.
It is an issue that also affects the recording process, so "refreshing" is just as important thing to do during recording/ripping as much as it is required during playback....
 
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sbo6

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For years now I've been advocating "refreshing" optical disc transports prior to playing.
Jim Smith advocates "refreshing" dac instead in his tip #121.



He went on to describe his experiences with dacs from separate well-known companies that defintely benefited sonically from rebooting or "refreshing" whatever you want to call it.







I've since learnt that both the transport and the dac need "refreshing".

Further more, the sequence on which component to power up first and when to load the disc into the transport are both audibly important too.

It's an issue that affects all digital playback regardless of whether it is optical disc based transport/dac combi, pc based combi, or integrated hdd based playback system being used and whatever digital interface (USB, i2s, HDMI, FireWire, ST Optical, SPDIF,...) is being utilised.
It is an issue that also affects the recording process, so "refreshing" is just as important thing to do during recording/ripping as much as it is required during playback....

Can you please further elaborate on why rebooting a PC which was presumably a music purposed unit would yield sonic benefits?
 

jeromelang

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Dec 26, 2011
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On data retrieval & playback hardware/software there are memory retention issues.

At the dacs there are issues with adapting to the preamble of the incoming data stream.
 

Diapason

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Mar 26, 2014
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I'd pay a consultant if I could be reasonably sure of solid results, and if there was a decent chance of finding an expert rather than a charlatan. Sadly I'm not confident on either score, so I doubt it will happen.
 

sbo6

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May 18, 2014
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On data retrieval & playback hardware/software there are memory retention issues.

At the dacs there are issues with adapting to the preamble of the incoming data stream.

Please elaborate wrt "memory retention issues". With SW like JRiver you can store a to-be played song in memory so how would that change or have an issue vs a reboot?
 

Fitzcaraldo215

New Member
Nov 3, 2014
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On data retrieval & playback hardware/software there are memory retention issues.

At the dacs there are issues with adapting to the preamble of the incoming data stream.

Memory retention issues affecting playback? Possibly, if there is a bug in the specific hardware/software. But, this seems one of those "audio is somehow special and does not follow the same rules" caveats. My system has no problems accurately retrieving audio, text documents, images, playing videos, etc. Also, my DAC has never been confused by different formats - DSD, PCM - sampling rates, etc. There is no noise as file formats change, and my DAC always displays the received source format perfectly.

If you have a problem, try different, better gear. Otherwise, if it makes you feel better, go ahead with your ritual. But, you will excuse me if I rate this as pure, unsubstantiated mythology.
 

sbo6

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Memory retention issues affecting playback? Possibly, if there is a bug in the specific hardware/software. But, this seems one of those "audio is somehow special and does not follow the same rules" caveats. My system has no problems accurately retrieving audio, text documents, images, playing videos, etc. Also, my DAC has never been confused by different formats - DSD, PCM - sampling rates, etc. There is no noise as file formats change, and my DAC always displays the received source format perfectly.

If you have a problem, try different, better gear. Otherwise, if it makes you feel better, go ahead with your ritual. But, you will excuse me if I rate this as pure, unsubstantiated mythology.

My thoughts exactly. If an app is poorly written and has a memory leak and/or maps to non-desirable areas of memory, then a reboot may help. But even then I'd be skeptical again because JRiver and other apps cache songs in memory (I'm sure with restricted access) before even playing.
 

cjfrbw

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Apr 20, 2010
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The audio blogs over the years are littered with accounts of guys who have hired experts, either to optimize or to build from scratch with architectural enhancement. It has always been shocking to me how many end users are dissatisfied with the result. On the other hand, some are very satisfied and consider it money well spent. Also, I don't think I have seem many of theses systems that look the same a year or two later without significant changes in equipment etc. Audiophiles are restless creatures and seldom sit still for very long.

If you have lots of blank checks, want the architectural digest treatment for visual art and beauty, or just don't have a clear idea as to your goals, an expert will probably help at least get you in the zone, especially with electrical requirements, power management, room modes, equipment synergy etc.

If you are a warty, barnacled audiophile with decades of prior experience and multiple generations of equipment, you will probably just drive the "expert" crazy trying to guess your particular set of obsessions.

My system has become like a Russian nesting doll. Systems within systems. I can listen to two raw, crossoverless panels on the Analysis Epsilon speakers with a Directly Heated Triode preamp feeding a Yamaha B2 VFET and it sounds wonderful. I can ramp it up to complete surround, active crossover, multiple amps etc. I actually listen to it at times all the different ways, and I can tube roll with the Directly Heated Triode line stages. Maybe that's the way I have calmed nervosa, several systems in one, with multiple variants and adjustments.
 

Fitzcaraldo215

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Not saying that ST's efforts might not be worthwhile for some audiophiles, particularly for for the LP system setup, though at a considerable price premium for that service vs. alternatives. But, his value would be not worth it to me. Vinyl is no longer my cup of tea. The only consultancy that I would ever consider is a certified acoustician to advise on construction and to measure and treat my room. I do not see those capabilities in ST's resume or any measurement emphasis in the services he provides.

It is clear there is a spectrum of audiophiles, as there always will be. Possibly, that is generationally driven to a degree. I am no youngster by any means, but I believe that conventional audiophile wisdom largely has a huge blind spot about the macro influence of room acoustics in favor of micro considerations like contact cleaning, vibration isolation, by ear speaker positioning, toe in, etc., etc., all sans measurement. I do not think the all important questions of room acoustics can be dealt with simplistically, as so many magazine reviewers have done for decades and still do in their "trust my ears" subjectivism, without comprehensive measurements by a knowledgeable acoustical practitioner.

The conventional audiophile mindset seems to be it is just about equipment choices and proper hookup, just like the big boy reviewers. I do not agree. The room is a crucial and inseparable, but underestimated, part of the playback system. And, it takes considerable understanding of the complexities of room acoustics and effective measurement to deal with it. This is expertise that I think would be of value.
 

FrantzM

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Apr 20, 2010
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Not saying that ST's efforts might not be worthwhile for some audiophiles, particularly for for the LP system setup, though at a considerable price premium for that service vs. alternatives. But, his value would be not worth it to me. Vinyl is no longer my cup of tea. The only consultancy that I would ever consider is a certified acoustician to advise on construction and to measure and treat my room. I do not see those capabilities in ST's resume or any measurement emphasis in the services he provides.

It is clear there is a spectrum of audiophiles, as there always will be. Possibly, that is generationally driven to a degree. I am no youngster by any means, but I believe that conventional audiophile wisdom largely has a huge blind spot about the macro influence of room acoustics in favor of micro considerations like contact cleaning, vibration isolation, by ear speaker positioning, toe in, etc., etc., all sans measurement. I do not think the all important questions of room acoustics can be dealt with simplistically, as so many magazine reviewers have done for decades and still do in their "trust my ears" subjectivism, without comprehensive measurements by a knowledgeable acoustical practitioner.

The conventional audiophile mindset seems to be it is just about equipment choices and proper hookup, just like the big boy reviewers. I do not agree. The room is a crucial and inseparable, but underestimated, part of the playback system. And, it takes considerable understanding of the complexities of room acoustics and effective measurement to deal with it. This is expertise that I think would be of value.

+1 + a lot more. Excellent Post
 

microstrip

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Very interesting article - thanks for posting.

But the best part was towards the end (quoting)

"We’ve all become increasingly product focused (obsessed is such an ugly term) and reviews have been a big part of that process -- yet it’s a perspective and attitude that makes less and less sense the more you look at it. The simple fact is that you can’t listen to an individual component and it’s almost impossible to define its specific behavior or nail down its contribution in anything other than a clearly defined system context. We own and listen to systems and systems are what we build -- but we obsess over individual components."
(end of quote)

And IMHO setup is part of the system!
 

theophile

Well-Known Member
Another Viewpoint

I have watched this thread develop from its inception. Since I am named in several posts, I hope it is OK to make a few observations.

Reference - IME, audiophiles simply don’t have a great reference for what to expect from their systems. Therefore it is difficult to know where to go or how to get there. I make this observation from installing and voicing perhaps 700 or so systems in my career. With a tiny handful of exceptions, dealers do not demo nearly the sound quality that they should - or could. You certainly will not hear it at a show.

Dealer service – (this is my pet peeve, about which I occasionally rant to other industry associates and sometimes to my RoomPlay clients who are especially satisfied with their musical engagement when I am done, yet frustrated that their dealer couldn’t or wouldn’t do this for them). So let me come out and say it - in general, dealers do not provide the level of service that they ought to. IMO, they should install what they sell, and not leave until they cannot get the system sounding better with the gear and room at hand. If they would perform this service, in most cases they would have gained a loyal client for life.

Why don’t they do it? - I blame it on short-sightedness at best, or inability to really know what to do, and in some cases, an unwillingness to do the work required. I emphatically agree that the dealer should be doing what I and some others are asked to do.

Retail audio specialist – As I write this, I am backed up more than 18 RoomPlay voicing sessions, and I have had to turn away 3 out of 4 applicants for a couple of years now. If the dealers would step up, there would be little call for someone else to help. It seems to me that a retail audio specialist needs to offer the sort of service that goes against the discount grain. I say this with substantial experience in this area, which I will briefly outline below.

Qualifications part A – Almost without exception, the clients that I have worked with over the years have been bright, successful individuals. Whether they are anesthesiologists, attorneys, businessmen, whatever, they have proven success in their lives. But they still do not have a reference, nor do they know what to do beyond the so-called “basics” (which are wrong all too often). Many of them are also time-poor. They need someone to help them. They have finally realized that they don’t want to throw more money at the latest and greatest components when the fundamental basics of voicing to the room haven’t even been covered.

Qualifications part B
– The people that are serving as “consultants” appear to have considerable experience. With one exception, they are classified at WBF as Industry Experts. That exception is Jim Smith. Not sure why this is the case, but here are some qualifications in case you didn’t know. Honestly speaking, I do not need to work, nor get more accolades, but I do enjoy helping to make a difference in people’s lives. I am simply including this info to offer credibility to the statements made above.

Skipping as much as possible, here we go:

Managed a high-end audio store in Norfolk, VA in the early 70s (ARC, SAE, Crown, McIntosh, Dahlquist, Magnepan, ReVox, etc.). Installed every high-end component that I sold. Some of those clients are still active with me today.

Sold (and installed) so much ARC, that in late 1975, Bill Johnson flew into Norfolk from Minnesota, expressly to offer me a job at Audio Research. I subsequently took it and moved wife and family to Minnesota. Traveled for ARC and, with Wendell Diller, called on HP and JGH.

A year later, Jim Winey hired me away from ARC to be Magnepan’s National Sales Manager. I wrote the Magneplanar T-1D, MG-2, and MG-1 owner’s manuals. I visited the dealer network early and often. We had about 80 dealers when I joined Magnepan, most of whom were not doing much for us or for their clients. I made wholesale cuts and got the network down to about 40. I trained them on set-up. In two years our sales quadrupled (helped in no small measure by the introduction of the MG-1 to our much smaller and more knowledgeable dealer network).

In late 1979, I opened my own hi-end shop – Audition - in Birmingham, AL. Same concept – install what you sell. Audition was named one of the top 50 audio shops by AudioVideo Interiors (leading industry mag at the time) in 1980 & 81. The other recipients were all larger shops with some longevity, unlike our start-up venture.

We became a (and sometimes THE) top dealer for a number of our vendors (Linn, Goldmund, Rega, Transparent Audio, Apogee, Magnepan, Quad, Wilson, Vandersteen, Thiel, MLAS, Cello, Spectral, Bang & Olufsen, Luxman, Nakamichi, NAD, etc.).

Started a location recording company as well. NPR affiliates broadcast my recordings. Primarily used Mark Levinson ML-5 – a modified Studer A80 (30/15 IPS half track). In the '80s, excerpts from my master tapes were played at several CES Shows, including Magnepan & Apogee (I did not allow any attribution to me, as the performers were well known). Gordon Holt commented very favorably on the tapes in an issue of Stereophile. These digital copies were made on my Nakamichi version of the Sony PCM-F1. Mr. Nakamichi gave me one of his first two units. Jeff Rowland later modified the line stage for me.

In 1998, Holger Fromme offered me the distributorship for Avantgarde Acoustics. Two years later Avantgarde-USA demo’d for the first time at the 2000 CES. We received tremendous press, from folks who had never liked horns before. In 2003, at the Stereophile Show in San Francisco, Robert Harley of TAS and Srajan Ebaen of 6moons reported on the never-before-seen phenomenon of the audience giving a standing ovation at the end of each 25-minute demo for three days! Harley mentioned it again recently. Of the shows where we participated, we won Best of Show acclaim in the audio press 5 out of the 7 shows. Always different rooms, different components. I personally (and solely) voiced each of these demos. Avantgarde had not received such acclaim previously, nor have they since I resigned as distributor in 2005.

Get Better Sound was introduced in 2008. There is much more I could tell, but it’s getting way out of hand. Just wanted you to know that my comments at the top of this post come from considerable successful high-end audio industry experience, since 1969.

To me it all comes back to the first bolded statement that you made. Dealers who either don't know what great reproduction is and/or can't coax it out of great components.

I wrote a letter to Stereophile in the '90s to that effect. Basically I am loathe to buy anything from a dealer who demonstrates high priced lousy sounding systems. My argument in the letter I wrote to Stereophile was that the dealer's livelihood depends upon demonstrating superior sound quality. If the roof over his head and the food on his table aren't sufficient motivation for him to get it right in his own showroom then he is either deaf, deluded, deceitful or devoid of understanding. Either way, that style of dealer will not be able to fettle a great system even if he installs it in your home. His paradigm of 'great sound' or the limitations of his knowledge will hobble the end result.

The same goes for the owner who sets his own gear up. His sonic frame of reference for what sounds great will be where he settles in his efforts to optimise his system. That's all fine and well if his sonic frame of reference is commensurate with the ability of the equipment he is optimising, but he is letting himself down if it isn't. He might experience an improvement in the sound over what he had previously and thus be pleased with his efforts, yet he might only be experiencing a fraction of what his system might otherwise actually achieve with someone who has a clearer understanding of what is possible with the same equipment.

The limitation in most systems is what is between the ears of the owner. That limitation leads them to purchase from poorly informed dealers. Leads them to purchase poorly performing equipment. Leads them to only achieve a fraction of the ability of whatever great equipment they do acquire. It is a limitation in their frame of reference coupled to an overall lack of experience.

If one is lucky in this hobby one gets to hear an exceptional system set up by an exceptional dealer early on in one's journey. Even after 30 years in this hobby, if all that one has heard has been unexceptional systems set up by unexceptional dealers, one's frame of reference for quality sound will be unexceptional sound.
 
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