Zero Distortion: Altec Assault and the Magic of Misho (Audio Antiquary)

[ScottB]

The beauty of those twin 15's FLH reproducing the midbass is you are not trying to cheat physics by using small drivers.

 

[bonzo75]

Very interesting comment, some speaker designers such as Troels Gravesen say that it takes quite a lot of surface area to achieve a full bodied, real sounding pair of speakers. IE: he uses 8' midranges down to 160hz + 15' woofer, 6.5' midranges never lower than 200hz, you get the point. Maybe is the huge surface area + high efficiency what makes the sound compelling and not the partial horn loading? With a huge Onken style cabinet and the right drivers (ie: 15' Supravox 400 EXC field coil or AE TD18H) and some room gain it should be possible to achieve a sensitivity around 100db, and you wouldn't need subs.

Btw this is just a random thought, I'm not knocking down the FLH, just regurgitating some ideas, of course the FLH would be more even more efficient, but would take some serious real state compared to the already huge (around 400l cabinet) Onken style speakers.

I have already tried those, Onken cabs are quite a massive compromise in the midbass. It is fine if you have space constraints and can't get a FLH, you can then have a Onken style cab. Fwiw, Misho is anti Onken cabs, he prefers his own version of a 500 litre box when it comes to a compromise to a FLH.

Markus Klug, who made the wooden Altec multicell horn covering the midrange in my report, also uses that same horn, obviously, Altec drivers, and the same electronics. However, he cannot get a 817 cabinet up his narrow vintage staircase, and therefore uses two 15' woofers in a closed box. They just don't sound the same. The horn loading adds 6 db and gives and open feeling to the sound that lets the music breathe, and flows coherently with the upper ranges. 8 and 10 inch woofers are fine if you are closing the box, as you will get more oomph, but the bass sounds closed in and distorted and out of sync with the upper horn. The moment you open it, you lose bass, so you have to make up for that by adding large drivers. You are right that closing the box would give you a lower extension, but that is at the cost of midbass sonics.

 

[kodomo]

It is not as important to me. I don't think I am adamant on a type of solution there. It should roll over properly from the Midbass horn, and give sufficient weight, ambience, detail. I have heard good Midbass with a big front loaded horn, sealed subs, and there are also cheap horn loaded DIY alternatives the size of a small fridge to be kept in the corner. All could work.

Or larger than a full size refrigerator! I built tapped horns which load down to 20hz many years ago. I am 180cm for reference

 

[Folsom]

How did you like the tapped horn sound?

 

[kodomo]

How did you like the tapped horn sound?

The highest I would cross it would be 80hz, preferably lower than that. So, Leif can use it below his midbass but I can not with my current mid bass horn. I need another channel filling in between, so I am not using it anymore. The complication it brings takes away from the positives. I can hear nothing wrong with it up till 60hz with 3rd order filter, again 80hz is more than agreeable with 3rd order filter too.

So, with the right system it is quite good. It is hard to get those lower two octaves breathing like this. The best use I got from it was along the klipschorn, filling in the last octave where khorn could not fill (20hz-40hz). I still have it at my storage. I made it out of 30mm wood, so it takes a few people to move it, it was completely damp and when used only on last octave, no one could figure out where that thundering last octave came from, it blended really good.

 

[marslo]

I am very interested in your opinion about Universum horns, they are declared going down to 30 Hz but their bass is much less controlled than my Duo Mezzo HD properly tuned using built in DSP.
Do you think that 2 good sealed subs - like Rel for example - could be an efficient compromise going from say 20 Hz to the area of 60-80 Hz ?
My idea is to try Universum Mk IV with two Rel subs for the deep bass.
Imho Universum III alone are not good enough in the deep bass area.
I am not interested in DIY solution though.

 

[bonzo75]

What's the difference in the mk3 and 4?

 

[marslo]

Hard to say, I wrote to Lukasz Lewandowski , wait for the answer.

http://horns.pl/en/speaker-sets/universum-3-way/

 

[bonzo75]

Why don't you drive Rel subs if you have them over to his and listen? He will also easily be able to make horn loaded subs for you for your listening.

 

[marslo]

I prefer to try Uni mk4 with Rel subs at home.

 

[bonzo75]

Well that too, if he will drive over

 

[LL21]

Thanks for this video...which Beethoven 9th was that?

Solti, Decca

Listening to it now...very, very interesting. So far, for me this surpasses my earlier favorite the Karajan '63. (Actually, I prefer Furtwangler FAR more...but i can listen to only so much static/scratcy sound from the '40s) As a fan of Furtwangler, I have to say I like Solti's 9th a lot, and have rapidly warmed to his 1, 5 and 7th. Given that Solti named Toscanini and Furtwangler as his inspirations, i suppose that makes sense.

I have just picked up Ivan Fischer's 5th as well...

 

[bonzo75]

Listening to it now...very, very interesting. So far, for me this surpasses my earlier favorite the Karajan '63. (Actually, I prefer Furtwangler FAR more...but i can listen to only so much static/scratcy sound from the '40s) As a fan of Furtwangler, I have to say I like Solti's 9th a lot, and have rapidly warmed to his 1, 5 and 7th. Given that Solti named Toscanini and Furtwangler as his inspirations, i suppose that makes sense.

I have just picked up Ivan Fischer's 5th as well...

Also try Szell, with Cleveland, but don't know how they sound on CD.

On YouTube I love Konwitcschny with Leipzig, check his YouTube we Eroica or 2nd movement of the 7th. 5th and 9th are brilliant as well. If you find it good on CD, strong reason enough to stay digital.

I also love the furtwangler good to know you can enjoy it on CD

 

[LL21]

Also try Szell, with Cleveland, but don't know how they sound on CD.

On YouTube I love Konwitcschny with Leipzig, check his YouTube we Eroica or 2nd movement of the 7th. 5th and 9th are brilliant as well. If you find it good on CD, strong reason enough to stay digital.

I also love the furtwangler good to know you can enjoy it on CD

Thanks! Will check them out. Yes, some of the audio historical societies have done a lot of reviews of the various masterings of Furtwangler...i got a bunch, as good I think as today's tech can get them.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

It seems there is a misunderstanding in this topic about bass and mid-bass.

Leif's bass horns are tapped horns but I guess you are talking about his dual flh mid-bass horns.

Cessaro mid-bass is not a weak link for me, its bass integration and solutions are its weak link for some people like us. Tang uses without a bass at all and is still happy. I have a very similar mid-bass and I am happy with its performance...

my sub horns are NOT TAPPED
they are purely 4 mfrontloaded with a pressurecontrolled/ventilated rear chamber...

 

[kodomo]

my sub horns are NOT TAPPED
they are purely 4 mfrontloaded with a pressurecontrolled/ventilated rear chamber...

Sorry for the confusion, from the looks of it I mixed it up. Can you share a plan so I can look into what has been done there.

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

 

[christensenleif@msn.com]

 

[kodomo]

I think this was Sverre and Rune's idea, they had a paper on it that has been published on AES, I have it somewhere. It showed the dropping of the levels of distortion with this permeable back chamber but as far as I remember, it applied to frequencies over 100hz. I wish Rune could join and explain what he has done here. Can you make him do that