Sad news. MBL has filed for insolvency.

[puroagave]

our industry has become the group of elitist, its a race to see who can have the most outrageously priced gear and rooms assembled now, we have lost focus on what its all about, the love of accurate sound reproduction. at axpona for example, many YouTubers and reviewers along with industry folk could careless about most rooms, there only strategy was to see the newest $800k plus systems, etc, we had 2 very nice rooms, has thousands in them and everyone loved them, many comeback with friends 2-3-4 times, that was great and much appreciated, but we asked many reiviewers, YouTubers, industry to step in an most could care less, heard more than once they only interested in the ultra high end. pretty absurd, I heard the big magico room, everyone going crazy over it, most overrated room there IMO, our industry is its own worse enemy

This hints of sour grapes. When was the last time Burmester stole the show relying on SQ alone? Don't take this the wrong way, in general I like the brand, they were very much Germany's answer to Mark Levinson in the '80s-'90s. But like Levinson, they become a reliable staple that has been surpassed--marketing wise--by other, flashier competition. IMO, there's now an over saturation of competing makes to choose from which excerbates the problem.

 

[Porsche]

This hints of sour grapes. When was the last time Burmester stole the show relying on SQ alone? Don't take this the wrong way, in general I like the brand, they were very much Germany's answer to Mark Levinson in the '80s-'90s. But like Levinson, they become a reliable staple that has been surpassed--marketing wise--by other, flashier competition. IMO, there's now an over saturation of competing makes to choose from which excerbates the problem.

sour grapes, not at all. personally I haven't heard a bad burmester system, I know they happen but I haven't done a bad room myself. its not cheap either, my point was so many of those rooms where way overdone and didn't sound good at all but they got alot of attention and rave reviews which is nuts, more isn't always better and if you demo a $750k to $2.5mill system it better leave you breathless and needing air, none of those came close, in the proper room im sure they would but at the show, nope.

last time burmester did axpona, I think 22 or 23 in the large room, they stole the show imo, I think that was there last axpona

 

[orfeo_monteverdi]

[please forgive my poor English]

It happens that I was passing the Brussels MBL dealer's shop* this afternoon, so I entered and asked what's going on with MBL ?
I have plenty of good news (that I may reveal, he said).
But it's late, I have to sleep.
To be continued...

---

* that dealer also stocks the following brands:
TAD, Wilson, B&W, YG, Magico, Martin Logan, Kii, Sonus Faber, JBL, Klipsch, hORNS, MoFi, Perlisten, Focal, Triangle, Cabasse, Dali, ...

 

[ssfas]

I never thought of my audio purchases as investments. They will likely be given away when I no longer use them. They are for my enjoyment at this moment in time.

Fortunately mine will be either sold or used by people I care about .

My father went on endlessly about things I would inherit. He kept on talking about what car he might buy, antiques, paintings, he collected clocks, books everywhere.

When he died two years ago I sold the car immediately because my sister was desperate for cash and I spent a chunk of my half on Korean ceramics. My wife says I did so to spite him.

Not one item found its way into my house. I managed to sell a few items at auction for about $3,000 in total. I had a charity collection and had to pay $2,000 to get the rest of the stuff cleared and disposed. I kept some pictures and rugs that I put in rental properties. I gave the clocks to a friend, who has managed to sell two of them and they paid for a holiday.

Don't assume anyone has your taste in anything. My father was an extreme example. If my kids sell or junk my hifi, I couldn't care less and whilst I'm alive I won't spend a moment worrying about it. One has a vinyl collection and is likely to inherit two collections, so he'll be busy on Discogs.

If I wanted to make an investment, I'd go to my financial manager, not a hi-fi store.

I think you have it wrong. The problem is not too few but far to many.

It could be argued that there are always the right number of manufacturers at all levels of the market. If there are too many, some will fail. If there are gaps in the market, they will likely be filled.

What I don't understand is if there is a mass of people who actually want increasingly expensive high-end hifi (Giffen goods) or would prefer there to be fewer manufacturers making more products more efficiently and hence at lower cost.

 

[Lagonda]

I never thought of my audio purchases as investments. They will likely be given away when I no longer use them. They are for my enjoyment at this moment in time.

Your wife will get 10 cents on the dollar at a estate sale when you are done using your gear Peter !

 

[TooCool4]

I never thought of my audio purchases as investments. They will likely be given away when I no longer use them. They are for my enjoyment at this moment in time.

Same here, once I have spent the money and have the kit, I no longer see them as money. When I upgrade I either trade them in or give them away to friends.

 

[Ron Resnick]

as far as I see, the business is almost dead.

I have no idea what you're seeing, but that is not at all what I am seeing.

I describe high-end audio as a decreasing economic pie industry. But it is very, very far from "almost dead." I don't know where you get that from.

Some of the blue chip companies seem to be doing just fine. A small group of small, niche companies are doing just fine.

 

[Jep]

The hobby will not die. Headphones are the future:

CanJam NYC 2023 Commences

CanJams are about much more than skull-testing the newest headphones. They are the best places for all audiophiles to audition innovations in amplification, file servers, and digital converters and to jabber and bond with students, hipsters, gamers, and brainiacs from every part of the...

www.stereophile.com

I have no idea what you're seeing, but that is not at all what I am seeing.

I describe high-end audio as a decreasing economic pie industry. But it is very, very far from "almost dead." I don't know where you get that from.

Some of the blue chip companies seem to be doing just fine. A small group of small, niche companies are doing just fine.

It might be far from dead yet, my point is that the younger people of today (born f ex in the 1990`s) will IMO not spend the kind of money on hifi/high end that we "older" people are/have done. They are listening to music through their Iphone`s etc and do not care about sound quality. We didn`t have this option when growing up, no streaming, no internet etc.

I bought my first mono Phillips cassette player at the age of 10. Then I bought a speaker that I connected to this in order to get "better" sound. This was in the early 70`s... From that point it was no looking back and I ended up with gear like Kondo, Absolare, CH Presicion etc (all sold now).

My point is this; Younger generations have not been through this "process". All they know is their Iphones, Ipods and streaming from Spotify. Yes it might be so that the headphones business will survive although I doubt that people will spend much on this as well.

The high end industry will (IMO) go on for 15-20 years more by offering "even higher resolution, new exotic materials, lower distortion" .

 

[andromedaaudio]

It might be far from dead yet, my point is that the younger people of today (born f ex in the 1990`s) will IMO not spend the kind of money on hifi/high end that we "older" people are/have done.

World population is growing , middle class is growing especially in Asia .
More to spend .....on Hifi .
Geographically speaking i see US / Europe go down in spending behaviour and asia up.

 

[Ron Resnick]

younger people of today (born f ex in the 1990`s) will IMO not spend the kind of money on hifi/high end that we "older" people are/have done.

I don't have any hard statistics on this, and market research and industry trend forecasting are not my fields, but just from lay person observation I think this is correct.

This is what I mean by "decreasing economic pie."

 

[Elliot G.]

I don't have any hard statistics on this, and market research and industry trend forecasting are not my fields, but just from lay person observation I think this is correct.

This is what I mean by "decreasing economic pie."

It’s absolutely not dead or almost dead which means it’s mostly alive
Sorry from one of my favorite movies
Axpona was biggest ever, so was almost every show the last few years. I don’t judge the health by shows but that wouldn’t happen if it was dead.
People love music and will find ways to listen to it perhaps differently than today, I don’t know .
The industry will change , it will shrink , it will grow it always does and it for the foreseeable future will change.
How I don’t exactly know. I know I am changing how I do business. I’m not a fan of shows, too many, too expensive and no ROI
Audio tourism is just that .
Audio needs to engage other people than the ones they already have.
Home theater did it
Headphones did it
Watches did it
Etc.
Stop doing the same old shit!!!

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I don't know how you guys do these shows. What a schlep.

I painted houses to buy my first hifi in high school, circa 1976. Maybe a Rotel receiver, Yamaha studio monitors. Technics TT. Some kind of cassette deck. I love hifi, but...

I have been to one show: last year's CapFest. I wanted to hear the new VSA VR30s. I later bought the 50s.

I can't imagine going there just to poke around. Seems like a lot of work for you guys, but not sure what works better...

 

[Reinickendorf]

Maybe you guys are right, "almost dead" wasn´t well described for what´s going on. Exaggerated.

But there´s a massive decline, right !?
And I´m afraid the Asian market won´t level this.......

 

[ssfas]

It’s absolutely not dead or almost dead which means it’s mostly alive
Sorry from one of my favorite movies
Axpona was biggest ever, so was almost every show the last few years. I don’t judge the health by shows but that wouldn’t happen if it was dead.
People love music and will find ways to listen to it perhaps differently than today, I don’t know .
The industry will change , it will shrink , it will grow it always does and it for the foreseeable future will change.
How I don’t exactly know. I know I am changing how I do business. I’m not a fan of shows, too many, too expensive and no ROI
Audio tourism is just that .
Audio needs to engage other people than the ones they already have.
Home theater did it
Headphones did it
Watches did it
Etc.
Stop doing the same old shit!!!

When hi-fi peaked, for the sake of argument in the 1970s and 1980s, the audiovisual market (home cinema and gaming) barely existed. Most people had a VCR machine and that was about it.

Gaming became massive from about 20 years ago and in the last 10 years, with the growth of Netflix, Amazon Prime et cetera, mass audiences who used to go to the cinema(me included) now stay at home to watch their movies and binge watch series. Have a look at any CEDIA reports and you will see that AV is a strong growth industry, even at the level of products comparable to expensive audio.

Certainly here in the UK, I’ve seen that companies that were primarily hi-fi are increasingly or predominantly selling audiovisual systems and products. It is also a much more service based product, so there is likely more customer loyalty.

I suspect the biggest problem for high-end audio is getting retailers to give it floor space and generally the ability to maintain a channel from the manufacturer to the customer. It is easier in the UK and Europe because of shorter distances and higher population density. I probably have at least a dozen and probably more very good dealers within a one hour drive, and dealers who will hand deliver loan items to my house.

I suspect the economic conditions are best in northern Europe, where you have relatively high income, high population density, a legal framework that protects dealers from being undercut by manufacturers (nonexistent in the USA), a strong tradition in audio research and development, a very high appreciation of aesthetic and – most importantly - a very high engagement in live music.

Manufacturers come and go in most industries on a fairly frequent basis. What is important is that engineers, designers and marketing come up with products that consumers want to buy, it really doesn’t matter whether it’s existing companies or new companies. If the demand for $100,000 amplifiers disappears, it doesn’t matter if you’ve been in a business for 100 years or 10 minutes, you’re going to have to come up with a different product.

 

[PYP]

I suspect the economic conditions are best in northern Europe, where you have relatively high income, high population density, a legal framework that protects dealers from being undercut by manufacturers (nonexistent in the USA), a strong tradition in audio research and development, a very high appreciation of aesthetic and – most importantly - a very high engagement in live music.

The Danes took a unique approach that has worked well for manufacturers there: https://danishsoundcluster.dk/en/about-us/ When you align educational opportunities with the needs of industry, the path forward is much clearer.

Also, check out the Project Portfolio. The kinds of topics that appeal to curious audiophiles.

 

[Perfect sense Audio]

In the case of MBL, there are a combination of rather obvious potential issues with the current product line up:

- Very slow if any real product development - especially within the speaker segment
- Heavily increased prices on models that's stayed more or less the same for +10 years or more
- Outdated aesthetics (depending on preferences) with bulky, high gloss designs

Adding to this is of course 50 pay checks to be paid each month where a sudden downturn could drain a business economically very quickly.

Any company within this highly competitive market needs to stay relevant being lean, flexible and fast moving to cope and adjust when needed.

 

[gleeds]

In the case of MBL, there are a combination of rather obvious potential issues with the current product line up:

- Very slow if any real product development - especially within the speaker segment
- Heavily increased prices on models that's stayed more or less the same for +10 years or more
- Outdated aesthetics (depending on preferences) with bulky, high gloss designs

Adding to this is of course 50 pay checks to be paid each month where a sudden downturn could drain a business economically very quickly.

Any company within this highly competitive market needs to stay relevant being lean, flexible and fast moving to cope and adjust when needed.

Perfect Sense and Marcus have a keen understanding of the market for high-end speakers, representing one of the largest assortments of leading high-end brands in Europe. As someone distributing and manufacturing high-end products in the US, lean, flexible, and fast-moving (in terms of refreshing and developing new products) is spot on. I remain surprised by the headcount number as I am not aware of any boutique speaker or electronics manufacturer that has a staff of this size.

Off-topic, but I'm curious if any members are part of the trend we're seeing (even at the very high end) for a 'less is more' approach. No replies desired as I intend to start a dedicated thread on the topic.

 

[Lagonda]

You dealer fellows always push what you have on your shelfs at the moment And MBL is not it. Less is more ? Not when it comes to price that is for sure.

 

[gleeds]

You dealer fellows always push what you have on your shelfs at the moment And MBL is not it. Less is more ? Not when it comes to price that is for sure.

Seems you missed the point, Lagonda, but yes, we do embellish the things we are passionate about
Agreed, MBL is not a less-is-more setup.

 

[Lagonda]

Seems you missed the point, Lagonda, but yes, we do embellish the things we are passionate about
Agreed, MBL is not a less-is-more setup.

Prices of the products you fellows sell are definitely not less is more either