DCS threatening Goldensound..What an industry this is

[joey_v]

Are you saying age is a determinant of a viable opinion in audio?

 

[Russya]

The “High End” music industry has a validity problem and has for a very long time. That’s the real issue. And what does acoustic music have to do with anything what so ever? A system can faithfully reproduce the signal it’s being fed, or it can’t, and any deviation is just color(some of it pleasing, but color nonetheless less).It does not matter how that signal is derived.

I find it more than a little amusing that the demographic you point out as having a true appreciation for “the absolute sound” is the very one scientifically proven as being the least able to hear it. Your type of attitude is why this hobby is dying. I would say to change your ways before it’s too late, but that ship has sailed. The pioneers of this hobby who really pushed the state of the art for performance sake and not so much price are mostly gone and their replacements are (mostly) disappointing.

 

[joeling]

Perspective is needed by designers and their companies.

The "reviewers" (online) nowadays have - mostly - only a passing acquaintance with "the absolute sound" and, as such, the High End is looked upon with disdain by younger people who are as unfamiliar with acoustic instruments as they are writing a correctly spelled sentence. To them, the High End is just stupid people who spend obscene amounts of money on equipment strictly for the "bragging rights" (I already said they don't go to symphonic/jazz concerts that are unamplified). They do not understand that some of us actually know (read/write/play) music and are familiar with which component most closely mimics that in life. And the (online) reviewers rarely - if ever - refer to the kind of music that would show unequivocally how magic some of the best components are. They talk about the 'features' and those features almost always involve techonology MUCH MORE than the music itself. I don't even watch their reviews more than say, a minute, to see if they talk about the music (and what kind of music this component is best at). Classical??? They've never heard it. How do you do High End with absolutely zero knowledge of the orchestra or UNAMPLIFIED music of any kind. And that's only a slight exaggeration - if at all. And of course other kinds of music can be recorded very well, as used for evaluation, but even that rarely shows up in most online reviews (and even some print ones. There is an online review of the Magnepan 2.7x which is anything but what i would consider a thorough - or even good - review in Tone Magazine). It is so vague as to suggest the reviewer listened for an hour or two, but it's merely impressions. Nothing you could sink your teeth into. I expect more from Tone than that. But it just goes to show what happens in "reviews" sometimes.

So, that being 'their' mindset, the best thing a manufacturer can do is recognize that his target audiences will likely continue to be us older folks, 45-80, who DO know how music sounds in real life. Just cater to them and leave the rest of the population alone. Some of them will never "get" that there is a quest for acoustic music to sound its most accurate, and that this industry started before they - as they put it - "sucked air." They simply want "good sound" (not that there's anything wrong with that, but their standards are much MUCH different than, say, a knowledgeable 50 year old audiophile who's been going to Carnegie Hall, or Boston Symphony Hall, or any other hall, for that matter.)

DCS - and every other manufacturer - should learn from these unfortunate events. Tom Evans is being savaged on Reddit for his Groove unit, the one that costs $25k, and the younger ones - who, it should be said, have never heard any of Tom's units, are just SO certain that the unit is not worth it, which, by extension, means that the companies such as Jadis, Audio Research, Soulution, Constellation and others of the HIGH high end will look to them to be sharks just out for our money. People's opinions used to be able to be reached by intelligent conversation. That's no longer possible, when one looks at these boards and sees all the hate aimed at such things as Shakti Stones, ac plug and play conditoners (even ones that only cost $200), speaker cables and the like. People now substitute opinion for actual experience. Look where that's gotten us in the macro world.

Manufacturers need to learn to just smile and say nothing. Don't respond at all, and if they do, just say, "We disagree completely with your review, but that's okay. We suggest people listen for themselves" and leave it at that. Not that the 'screamers' will ever 'listen for themselves' (it takes up time, and they're good for typing an acerbic response in a forum, but actually objectively listening to the best equipment? TOTALLY not their thing.) That said, it is far more gracious to simply say as little as possible than anything else. They are not the designers' audience. Leave it alone. I'm not sure the younger crowd as the time, patience or ability to learn how to listen to music. If they can't assess the benefits in one hour, they dismiss things are 'snake oil.' I hate to put it this way, but just ignore them. They're convinced us 'old geezers' can't hear and are fools. Don't assist them by proving them right by lawsuits with caustic comments.

Reeks of Snobbery

 

[Al M.]

Perspective is needed by designers and their companies.

The "reviewers" (online) nowadays have - mostly - only a passing acquaintance with "the absolute sound" and, as such, the High End is looked upon with disdain by younger people who are as unfamiliar with acoustic instruments as they are writing a correctly spelled sentence. To them, the High End is just stupid people who spend obscene amounts of money on equipment strictly for the "bragging rights" (I already said they don't go to symphonic/jazz concerts that are unamplified). They do not understand that some of us actually know (read/write/play) music and are familiar with which component most closely mimics that in life. And the (online) reviewers rarely - if ever - refer to the kind of music that would show unequivocally how magic some of the best components are. They talk about the 'features' and those features almost always involve techonology MUCH MORE than the music itself. I don't even watch their reviews more than say, a minute, to see if they talk about the music (and what kind of music this component is best at). Classical??? They've never heard it. How do you do High End with absolutely zero knowledge of the orchestra or UNAMPLIFIED music of any kind. And that's only a slight exaggeration - if at all. And of course other kinds of music can be recorded very well, as used for evaluation, but even that rarely shows up in most online reviews (and even some print ones. There is an online review of the Magnepan 2.7x which is anything but what i would consider a thorough - or even good - review in Tone Magazine). It is so vague as to suggest the reviewer listened for an hour or two, but it's merely impressions. Nothing you could sink your teeth into. I expect more from Tone than that. But it just goes to show what happens in "reviews" sometimes.

So, that being 'their' mindset, the best thing a manufacturer can do is recognize that his target audiences will likely continue to be us older folks, 45-80, who DO know how music sounds in real life. Just cater to them and leave the rest of the population alone. Some of them will never "get" that there is a quest for acoustic music to sound its most accurate, and that this industry started before they - as they put it - "sucked air." They simply want "good sound" (not that there's anything wrong with that, but their standards are much MUCH different than, say, a knowledgeable 50 year old audiophile who's been going to Carnegie Hall, or Boston Symphony Hall, or any other hall, for that matter.)

DCS - and every other manufacturer - should learn from these unfortunate events. Tom Evans is being savaged on Reddit for his Groove unit, the one that costs $25k, and the younger ones - who, it should be said, have never heard any of Tom's units, are just SO certain that the unit is not worth it, which, by extension, means that the companies such as Jadis, Audio Research, Soulution, Constellation and others of the HIGH high end will look to them to be sharks just out for our money. People's opinions used to be able to be reached by intelligent conversation. That's no longer possible, when one looks at these boards and sees all the hate aimed at such things as Shakti Stones, ac plug and play conditoners (even ones that only cost $200), speaker cables and the like. People now substitute opinion for actual experience. Look where that's gotten us in the macro world.

Manufacturers need to learn to just smile and say nothing. Don't respond at all, and if they do, just say, "We disagree completely with your review, but that's okay. We suggest people listen for themselves" and leave it at that. Not that the 'screamers' will ever 'listen for themselves' (it takes up time, and they're good for typing an acerbic response in a forum, but actually objectively listening to the best equipment? TOTALLY not their thing.) That said, it is far more gracious to simply say as little as possible than anything else. They are not the designers' audience. Leave it alone. I'm not sure the younger crowd as the time, patience or ability to learn how to listen to music. If they can't assess the benefits in one hour, they dismiss things are 'snake oil.' I hate to put it this way, but just ignore them. They're convinced us 'old geezers' can't hear and are fools. Don't assist them by proving them right by lawsuits with caustic comments.

You would be surprised how many young people actually play (acoustic) instruments, and thus know how they sound. In the Christmas concerts of our biotech company I am always astonished.
Also, in concerts at Boston Symphony Hall there are plenty young people in the audience, even though they do not make up a majority (in concerts at Jordan Hall of the New England Conservatory in Boston the percentage of young people attending is of course even higher). On another note, the demands on students in conservatories around the world are far higher now than in the past; young musicians are simply more proficient.

Also, the percentage of older audiophiles who have experience with unamplified live music is not high, so they don't particularly distinguish themselves in that either.

Yours reads like a typical uninformed -- and unfortunately frequent also on this forum -- "grumpy old man's rant" about young people, a pastime that has existed for millienia, going on from generations to generations, nothing new.

 

[Juiced]

Yours reads like a typical uninformed -- and unfortunately frequent also on this forum -- "grumpy old man's rant" about young people, a pastime that has existed for millienia, going on from generations to generations, nothing new.

There is even a term for that "Juvenoia"

 

[Al M.]

There is even a term for that "Juvenoia"

Thanks. Watched the first 7 minutes of it so far, excellent. Will definitely watch the rest of the whole thing later today.

 

[Al M.]

I have now watched the entire video. Truly excellent, well researched and put together, and thoughtful. Recommended viewing for everyone!

Thanks so much for posting!

 

[Mcbrion]

You would be surprised how many young people actually play (acoustic) instruments, and thus know how they sound. In the Christmas concerts of our biotech company I am always astonished.
Also, in concerts at Boston Symphony Hall there are plenty young people in the audience, even though they do not make up a majority (in concerts at Jordan Hall of the New England Conservatory in Boston the percentage of young people attending is of course even higher). On another note, the demands on students in conservatories around the world are far higher now than in the past; young musicians are simply more proficient.

Also, the percentage of older audiophiles who have experience with unamplified live music is not high, so they don't particularly distinguish themselves in that either.

Yours reads like a typical uninformed -- and unfortunately frequent also on this forum -- "grumpy old man's rant" about young people, a pastime that has existed for millienia, going on from generations to generations, nothing new.

You would be surprised how many young people actually play (acoustic) instruments, and thus know how they sound. In the Christmas concerts of our biotech company I am always astonished.
Also, in concerts at Boston Symphony Hall there are plenty young people in the audience, even though they do not make up a majority (in concerts at Jordan Hall of the New England Conservatory in Boston the percentage of young people attending is of course even higher). On another note, the demands on students in conservatories around the world are far higher now than in the past; young musicians are simply more proficient.

Also, the percentage of older audiophiles who have experience with unamplified live music is not high, so they don't particularly distinguish themselves in that either.

Yours reads like a typical uninformed -- and unfortunately frequent also on this forum -- "grumpy old man's rant" about young people, a pastime that has existed for millienia, going on from generations to generations, nothing new.

The Gradual Decline of Music Education

“Music doesn’t lie. If there is something to be changed in this world, then it can only happen through music” – Jimi Hendrix. Hendrix’s statement here rings more true than ever in the world we live in today, with much of the industry now being led by musicians and artists who each use their own...

brcurrent.com

 

[Ian B]

Perspective is needed by designers and their companies.

The "reviewers" (online) nowadays have - mostly - only a passing acquaintance with "the absolute sound" and, as such, the High End is looked upon with disdain by younger people who are as unfamiliar with acoustic instruments as they are writing a correctly spelled sentence. To them, the High End is just stupid people who spend obscene amounts of money on equipment strictly for the "bragging rights" (I already said they don't go to symphonic/jazz concerts that are unamplified). They do not understand that some of us actually know (read/write/play) music and are familiar with which component most closely mimics that in life. And the (online) reviewers rarely - if ever - refer to the kind of music that would show unequivocally how magic some of the best components are. They talk about the 'features' and those features almost always involve techonology MUCH MORE than the music itself. I don't even watch their reviews more than say, a minute, to see if they talk about the music (and what kind of music this component is best at). Classical??? They've never heard it. How do you do High End with absolutely zero knowledge of the orchestra or UNAMPLIFIED music of any kind. And that's only a slight exaggeration - if at all. And of course other kinds of music can be recorded very well, as used for evaluation, but even that rarely shows up in most online reviews (and even some print ones. There is an online review of the Magnepan 2.7x which is anything but what i would consider a thorough - or even good - review in Tone Magazine). It is so vague as to suggest the reviewer listened for an hour or two, but it's merely impressions. Nothing you could sink your teeth into. I expect more from Tone than that. But it just goes to show what happens in "reviews" sometimes.

So, that being 'their' mindset, the best thing a manufacturer can do is recognize that his target audiences will likely continue to be us older folks, 45-80, who DO know how music sounds in real life. Just cater to them and leave the rest of the population alone. Some of them will never "get" that there is a quest for acoustic music to sound its most accurate, and that this industry started before they - as they put it - "sucked air." They simply want "good sound" (not that there's anything wrong with that, but their standards are much MUCH different than, say, a knowledgeable 50 year old audiophile who's been going to Carnegie Hall, or Boston Symphony Hall, or any other hall, for that matter.)

DCS - and every other manufacturer - should learn from these unfortunate events. Tom Evans is being savaged on Reddit for his Groove unit, the one that costs $25k, and the younger ones - who, it should be said, have never heard any of Tom's units, are just SO certain that the unit is not worth it, which, by extension, means that the companies such as Jadis, Audio Research, Soulution, Constellation and others of the HIGH high end will look to them to be sharks just out for our money. People's opinions used to be able to be reached by intelligent conversation. That's no longer possible, when one looks at these boards and sees all the hate aimed at such things as Shakti Stones, ac plug and play conditoners (even ones that only cost $200), speaker cables and the like. People now substitute opinion for actual experience. Look where that's gotten us in the macro world.

Manufacturers need to learn to just smile and say nothing. Don't respond at all, and if they do, just say, "We disagree completely with your review, but that's okay. We suggest people listen for themselves" and leave it at that. Not that the 'screamers' will ever 'listen for themselves' (it takes up time, and they're good for typing an acerbic response in a forum, but actually objectively listening to the best equipment? TOTALLY not their thing.) That said, it is far more gracious to simply say as little as possible than anything else. They are not the designers' audience. Leave it alone. I'm not sure the younger crowd as the time, patience or ability to learn how to listen to music. If they can't assess the benefits in one hour, they dismiss things are 'snake oil.' I hate to put it this way, but just ignore them. They're convinced us 'old geezers' can't hear and are fools. Don't assist them by proving them right by lawsuits with caustic comments.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with your thoughts about High End's target audience, but I actually do pursue high end systems to listen to electric and electronic music on, and it makes a difference. Granted, it is much easier for me to understand and appreciate orchestral music on a nice system.

The issue is that there are a lot of loud voices screaming "Snake Oil!" at everything in audio. Even working in pro audio for years, people would get vicious if I said there were sonic advantages to analog tape, DSD, or high sample rate PCM. Some people have made a career and reputation selling a misanthropic idea that all audio over $1000 and 90s CD quality is mass delusion, hucksterism, hallucination, or arrogance.

The advantage these voices have, and especially with younger listeners, is that they have never heard a high end system, a true analog recording, or often times hi res digital, and very likely never heard unamplified music except maybe in school. And crucially, they are decades away from being able to afford any of it (if ever). So, this vacuum of experience is easily filled with opportunistic (and emotionally tinged) stories about snake oil, etc etc.

GoldenSound actually represent a different trend, younger listeners who are slowly discovering high end audio via developing their compact headphone systems. I think this is a good thing. I also wish the economics were such that truly impressive equipment was commonly available and affordable to the younger market. The 70s and the golden age of American and Japanese consumer hifi is a nice example of what it looks like for young enthusiasts to have affordable entry points into audio.

The way DCS handled the situation was really bad, I think because they simply weren't used to interacting with that market segment. As well, perhaps some of GoldenSound's own evaluation might have been skewed by not having a stable of high end equipment and cables to pair the Bartok with, the usual listening context that DCS expects. Their insularity really hurt them, alongside bad decision making and arrogance.

 

[Synaxis]

The way DCS handled the situation was really bad, I think because they simply weren't used to interacting with that market segment.

I would respectfully suggest - after having read dCS's emails to Goldensound that he made public and dCS did not dispute were true - it had nothing to do with not being used how to interact with people and rather complete and utter arrogance.

Who in a professional setting says in an email - as dCS did - "I am neither your mommy nor your psychiatrist" as they did to Goldensound?

 

[Bruce B]

Boeing began replacing a safety first culture with one focusing more on efficiency and productivity under Dennis Muilenburg and Dave Calhoun.

Oh.... this started long before Calhoun.... this happened with the MD merger and Stoneciper.....

 

[Bruce B]

You would be surprised how many young people actually play (acoustic) instruments, and thus know how they sound. In the Christmas concerts of our biotech company I am always astonished.

I got into Mastering because I was a musician first... Clarinet/Piano/Flute and Sax.

 

[PYP]

There is even a term for that "Juvenoia"

I liked the 20-year cycle as a way to explain that generations might be different but follow a pattern. [That background reminded me of a NYC subway restroom that became unavoidable after a particularly long ride during my youth! Strange choice.]

Is there is a theory that shows how humans struggle as technology changes? The current younger generation has been exposed to technology that is changing more rapidly, it seems. Of course, that is a challenge for societies too, not just one generation.

I have had the good fortune of meeting millennials who are likely to be some of the leaders of their generation. Worry not. They are just as thoughtful, hard working and accomplished as past generations. If they don't carry on with this weird hobby of ours, so be it. They have important work to do.