The State of High End Audio

[Phelonious Ponk]

I don't analyse the music..Im too busy enjoying it and letting it wash over me..I'm not a music reviewer able to write prose and verse about it and to be frank , couldn't be bothered to either.

If that makes me a philistine dolt ..so be it

That's not a pristine dolt, Rodney, that's the right path. I've had times when I could walk it. The best and the most sustained was when I was getting into jazz. I'm a musician, but I can't play the stuff; it's beyond me, so I had to just listen instead of analyzing the music to see what I could learn from it, or how I might arrange it for whatever performance projects I was working on at the moment. And somehow that also broke me from analyzing the sound all the time as if I was trying to eek out great balance and clarity from a PA system in a new room. But that didn't last. Even part-time, being a musician messes with the way you listen to music. Most I know don't even have good systems, and the ones who do, like myself, were usually involved in the sound reinforcement and/or recording side of it. That'll suck you deep into an interest in sound, and the rabbit hole opens.

Tim

 

[amirm]

I will be handing out sanctions for members that continue to violate our TOS:

6. Please do not attempt to moderate the forum on your own. If you see objectionable posts, please report them. We will deal with them. Above all, focus on the topic being discussed, rather than the person discussing it.

I don't care how much you dislike someone. That doesn't give you the right to repeatedly come and say it here. Go listen to some music instead.

 

[DaveyF]

That's not a pristine dolt, Rodney, that's the right path. I've had times when I could walk it. The best and the most sustained was when I was getting into jazz. I'm a musician, but I can't play the stuff; it's beyond me, so I had to just listen instead of analyzing the music to see what I could learn from it, or how I might arrange it for whatever performance projects I was working on at the moment. And somehow that also broke me from analyzing the sound all the time as if I was trying to eek out great balance and clarity from a PA system in a new room. But that didn't last. Even part-time, being a musician messes with the way you listen to music. Most I know don't even have good systems, and the ones who do, like myself, were usually involved in the sound reinforcement and/or recording side of it. That'll suck you deep into an interest in sound, and the rabbit hole opens.

Tim

Tim, I guess I'm lucky, because I can separate my playing from my audio listening. When I am playing ( or teaching for that matter), I just let the music speak to me, if you know what I mean...and I'm sure you do as a fellow musician. Playing jazz is about hearing the music in your head..and in your heart, IMO. The ability for me to hear large amounts of music on a great system is actually a benefit to me. I think that we all 'copy' something or other when we play an instrument, and with that said, I believe it is easier for us to do that if we have a greater exposure to music. Listening to classical or blues or jazz or?? allows me to more greatly understand the intent of the music...and the musician. So, no for me it doesn't mess with the way I listen to music, except in a good way.

 

[JackD201]

Labeling the WBF environment as "toxic" is an exaggeration. It is good to have dissent that is what forums are for. You disagree , you tune out the person or use the ignore button or avoid his/her threads ... What is the big deal?
On that many posts are directed to Blizzard (Mike).. I have learn quite a lot from him and his spirit should be commended.. True he, Blizzard is at times (Often ? ) overbearing ( Sorry Pal) but do take the good and reject the bad . Loathe him if you want but do admit that he comes up with fresh ideas and provide a lot of help to us, that it willbe or already are a dealer or manufacturer is his ways to market his wares a different cringe-worthy way but his way and so far many his ideas are quite interesting.. Presently listening with some irritation to DSD-fied PCM and it sounds good .. better than I would like it too so far it seems better than straight-PCM.. euphonic ? Well.. maybe but os far interesting and it is coming from a lowly $499 DAC/headphones/amp Phone charger which does all known form of DSD iFi iDSD micro something .. so a little bit of praise or maybe experimentation would lighten the mood. On that I have learned a lot more from contentious threads than from "congrats" ones. I am willing to bet it is the same for the vast majority here.
Now getting back to the scheduled discussion ...

Whether we want to admit or not we want to share ... something, else we wouldn't be posting on a Forum. A public , open one at that. We must however be willing to learn from others and that is difficult for many.
The question about the Sate of High End Audio which brought this thread was asked in all seriousness. There is a growing disconnect between the faithful reproduction of what is in the medium and people idea of what sounds good. And in the absence of clear metric many have revered to more expensive = better. And that is the most visible path taken by the industry. However loud we claim of progress many seriously old systems or components manage to elicit a torrent of admiration from many who have heard them (Ddk horns and TT come to mind) .. FM Acoustics products do not change for decades and yet could well be the most prized items in all High End ... Burmester doesn't change either so I ask .. Where is the progress? I do believe there has been progress in speakers and in digital it is too rapid to even (from my point of view) considering spending more than $5k on a DAC but elsewhere, electronics in particular .. variations on a theme with one constant : Prices go up by the day...

In my opinion there is a point where one must decide. Do you go for fidelity to the source knowing full well that the source is a summation of artistic decisions or does one decide to include his own artistic decisions in the process of reproduction? Personally I don't think there is anything wrong with either. I do personally have limits and these are purely personal. Do I go for warts and all or do I dumb down my system a bit so I can enjoy a wider range of production values. I choose the latter.

As stated in the past, I think the biggest hurdle any music lover has to get over is being confident in what he deems right for him, IOW, really knowing what he likes. Communication becomes a huge part of the challenge because between vendor and vendee,b By operation, great amounts of largely unreliable inference becomes inevitable. Still, IMO it need not be complicated or difficult. Demos rock, text does not.

 

[treitz3]

<snip> Demos rock, text does not.

Hi Jack. The only things that enter my rig are ones that these ears have personally heard. I will check out a recommendation based upon trusted ears (of which there are few) but I will personally never purchase ear unheard.

Tom

 

[JackD201]

Hi Jack. The only things that enter my rig are ones that these ears have personally heard. I will check out a recommendation based upon trusted ears (of which there are few) but I will personally never purchase ear unheard.

Tom

I wish I could say that I haven't bought purely on recommendation, but I'd be lying. Let's just say the results of such have been 50-50. Not a good percentage.

These days I will travel half way around teh world if I have to for due diligence sake and yet, I'm not even at looking for things the pieces do great, only what crap they don't do!

 

[treitz3]

Ouch Jack. If I were to travel half way around the world, I would *hope* to find things that allow me to discover what I am missing. Not what they can't do.

Your percentage is admirable IMO. I haven't been privy to that high a percentage IMO. I'm glad for you sir.

Tom

 

[PeterA]

This was my last turntable.


But then around 4 years of age, a great new technology called CD's emerged on the scene. This is when I ditched the turntable. Now 34 years later, we have advanced so far in digital, yet it's only just a new beginning. Because digital is the future of audio. Digital and class D are going to dominate the high end world soon.

As far as live music, I often sing in the shower.


When I started building speakers 21 years ago, the only measurement tools I had were a Radio shack SPL meter and my ears. Yet I managed to make them sound better than many commercial offerings at the stores. So I wouldn't be so quick to think I don't know what good audio sounds like.

I admit to having a brief chuckle at your response, but my questions to you about your experience with turntables and classical concerts were serious and an attempt to learn something and to place your comments and advice into better context. I understand that you have much experience designing audio equipment and that you seem to know a fair amount about digital technology, but I was trying to understand if your general audio/music experience is more similar or different from others in this hobby.

I have little doubt that you know what GOOD audio sounds like. What I wonder is if you have experienced what GREAT audio or live acoustic music sounds like.

You have suggested that your involvement here is really nothing more than market research and trying to understand what audiophiles are thinking so that you can better understand the potential market for your gear. I respect that and I suppose it is a valid reason to join a forum. I am left wondering, however, if you know what a classical concert sounds like or if you know what analog, the alternative to the future of digital, sounds like. Perhaps you don't even care or you consider it not relevant for your needs. That may or may not serve you well, but if you want to understand on what many people interested in the High End are basing their opinions, it might be of some benefit to experience some of what others in the hobby enjoy so much.

 

[treitz3]

Well said, Peter. This is, of course, IMO.

This coming from someone who has personally invested 12K on a custom crossover project that so far has taken over three years to develop for his own speakers. But it has been perceived that I am against innovation from others. Just sayin'. The goal I am trying to succeed in achieving is written in my signature that has not changed in many, many moons.

One should never assume who knows what on the other end of the keyboard.

Tom

 

[NorthStar]

Post deleted; sorry it's Friday and I thought that I was on Facebook.

 

[BobShermanEsq]

One should never assume who knows what on the other end of the keyboard.

Tom

This is very true. We all bring our knowledge here and when we are freely able to share it, we will all benefit.

Except of course for the individuals who already know everything.

We all have our own opinion of what high end is, or should be, and they are all valid.

But... Without a solid live music reference how can we properly judge our systems?

Also much of the music we listen to is recorded with "ancient" technology. How might this alter our judgment of all the "new" super technology.

 

[BobShermanEsq]

Post deleted; sorry it's Friday and I thought that I was on Facebook.

At least you weren't going on Ashley Madison.

 

[RayDunzl]

... Without a solid live music reference how can we properly judge our systems?

I helped my Dad build an Eico integrated and mono FM tuner in 1960 or so, so my first exposures were to recorded music.

I probably judged my clarinet playing and the qualities of my primary school band (in the third grade) against THAT reference.

 

[amirm]

Except of course for the individuals who already know everything.

I know everything there is to know about the audio business.

 

[treitz3]

Nobody knows everything about the audio world. To say so is telling as to how much one actually does know.

Tom

 

[Blizzard]

I know everything there is to know about the audio business.

I think knowing lots about the business is more of a detriment, than an asset. This knowledge can mislead you to believe there's a rigid set of rules that must be followed, in order to achieve success. Following this road is also the reason 9-10 businesses fail in the first year, and the remaining 9-10 left over fail within the following 5 years. It's much better to start with a clean sheet, and blaze your own trail, rather than follow what others have done.

But as far as being aware of the technology available out there, this is another story altogether. This is an absolute must to survive in the information age.

 

[BobShermanEsq]

I know everything there is to know about the audio business.

We must honor the past to appreciate the future...

 

[bonzo75]

I know everything there is to know about the audio business.

The difference is that a certain poster here, had he been in Forrest's shoes, would instead have told Bubba that he himself knows everything about shrimps, shrimps are bad, and cheap food supplements are the way to go. We need people like Forrest who will learn from Bubba and grow successful shrimp businesses themselves

 

[amirm]

Nobody knows everything about the audio world. To say so is telling as to how much one actually does know.

Tom

It is not really hard to know everything. You just need a logical mind:

 

[amirm]

The difference is that a certain poster here, had he been in Forrest's shoes, would instead have told Bubba that he himself knows everything about shrimps, shrimps are bad, and cheap food supplements are the way to go. We need people like Forrest who will learn from Bubba and grow successful shrimp businesses themselves

Me, me, me!