Entreq Tellus grounding,in england

[NorthStar]

I would love to see measurements of the Tellus, just for curiosity/fun/freedom sake.
...Where my money goes...more than bliss more than sounds more than looks. As much as I appreciate cleaner music I appreciate science and knowledge equally.

Justify my life, my soul, my spirit, my cello.

* When I looked @ the first post of this thread linking to another forum with pictures of a box with copper plate and wires inside...then a price sticker attached to it...my curiosity on many levels got aroused...I cannot drive around without noticing it. Or I might close both eyes and open both ears, and see what happens.

 

[spazmatron]

well i think amir has fooled himself so often when doing listening tests he knows for sure he can't be trusted. logic dictates the frail/faulty assertions made when listening must be be tested by something free from the influence of our conscious selves.

he is right, the same way spock is often right and kirk is often bonkers..

however i myself chose all my kit by listening in my own home, its part of the fun and part of the process of making the whole audio chain personal like the music in a way. i do this in the full knowledge that often i will be fooling myself.

i don't need to snip, i don't rely on denial.. i enjoy my human self because of my inherent failings not despite of them.

 

[amirm]

Why not do something revolutionary, put it in your system and listen to it.

Don't know why you assume I won't be doing that. I plan to.

What do measurements matter if it doesn't make the music sound better?

What if measurements show an improvement but listening test results don't?

 

[spazmatron]

Unfortunately one cannot trust one's ears , or rather as Spaz said one's brain.
If you really want to compare unbiased then remove the visual stimulus .
Keith

yea but you brain will still mess with you, the only way is to not realise you're testing something, the psychological effect of knowing your listen and expecting change will affect the result.

there really is no way round it, not really. whether people accept that fact is immaterial.

when did you disown me father? you only have one son here now so best make the most of it.

 

[amirm]

Or are confrontations the preferred method of debate without ever listening to said device?

Tom

Looks like confrontation is the preferred method of arguing with me before I even have the bloody device! So much defensiveness and posturing thrown at me even starting the process.

You guys need to stop taking these forum discussions so seriously. It is not a matter of life and death. It is a hobby for me to go and investigate. Some results will come out. It might fit your audio stance or not. Either way, you should be cool and collected and not nervous this way.

 

[treitz3]

Unfortunately one cannot trust one's ears , or rather as Spaz said one's brain.
If you really want to compare unbiased then remove the visual stimulus .
Keith

Hello Keith, if one removes the visual stimulus then one removes the measurements. That's the one and only thing we can see other than the box itself. I'd also like to point out that you can't see what something sounds like. That's like asking a blind person what something looks like. In other words, this makes no sense.

Visually, the eyes can also be fooled as well by the brain FWIW.

It would be appreciated if you would stop twisting things the complete opposite way (you know who you are). Some people have been arguing as if it has been a matter of life and death over the last 60 some odd pages even though they have not even heard said device. Embarrassing commentary, ridiculing, putting down, demanding measurements and rudely challenging the whole way. Repeatedly. This is not a measurement thread yet measurements are being shoved down anyone with an ACTUAL listening observation of this device. Now it's being twisted around and once again things come full circle with being cool, collected and not nervous when responding to measurements being shoved down throats. Things don't work both ways to suit any current situation....subject to change when it's convenient. Perhaps one day, someone will learn this. Apparently today is not the day.

Tom

 

[NorthStar]

I'm with you Amir; I want to discover, and communicate, share, discuss in a healthy state. ...Respect.

I want to judge no one and be judged by no one. It's not about us it's about what's best. :b

 

[amirm]

That's too easy. We still don't know what Amir's system is comprised of and whether his components are up to the task noise floor wise to allow the benefits of Entreq to be heard.

This is why I asked you this question earlier and you did not answer. How did you determine your system needed it and how do I decide my system needs it?

It is possible that a consumer grade HT type receiver could benefit by cleaning up the signal ground.

More or less than a 2-channel system and on what basis? We still have no technical theory of what this device does. How are you able to determine all of these things without this knowledge of access/listening tests results of the same?

Personally on this measurement thing, I think the voltages are too small for hobbyist electrical testers to draw any conclusive and meaningful results.

Hobbyist electrical testers don't have $25,000 test instruments and published work in many articles reviewed extensively by many in the industry.

 

[Steve williams]

Happy Saturday to all. I've been away for the past 8 days and completely off the grid. Catching up on the posts at WBF in the past week has brought me to this thread and close to 30 pages of posts. I have to say first off as a member but more importantly as an administrator and owner of this forum that I was truly embarrassed to have read what I did here by many members. Clearly there is a difference in opinions between those who own the product and take pride in their ownership because of what they hear vs those who not only don't own the product but have never heard it and slam it and its manufacturer without ever hearing the product. Personally I don't own it and have no pony in the game but I take great objection to these armchair engineers who on the basis of their claimed credentials continue to offer up their "opinion" that it is nothing but cat litter. Perhaps but my question is to the naysayers why won't you just put one as offered in your systems and then tell us your opinions. I feel as well that it is healthy to have differences of opinions but to myself as well as many readers here it seems bothersome that opinions be offered as sacrosanct without ever having heard the product. Further I felt comments about P-O as being a farmer and therefore incapable of making something that would benefit audiophiles as truly bothersome. How many great ideas, inventions, creations etc have come from ordinary people like you and I.

Personally I give more credence to those who have heard this equipment and voiced their opinion, be it positive or negative, than to those who have never heard it but claim it be impossible to glean any sonic benefit.

Of course this is just my opinion but again I have to apologize to P-O as well as to others who were offended by such comments

 

[amirm]

Ears are best.

They are as long as you can assure what comes out of your mouth matches what went into your ear. You know a way to demonstrate that?

If you can't hear a benefit, don't buy it and move on.

What if I can demonstrate you can't hear the benefit. What then?

 

[the sound of Tao]

Why not do something revolutionary, put it in your system and listen to it. What do measurements matter if it doesn't make the music sound better?

All comes down to purpose. This is the obvious and perfect solution for many of us. Just depends on what your aim is. If the purpose is to listen to music then listening to the music is the start... and a perfect end. If it all gets you in properly then we don't even have to go any further than that.

If your primary purpose is to measure stuff then the music doesn't really matter as all you need is sounds because measurement doesn't as yet completely account for the human experience of listening to music. Science has yet to fully map how people listen to music rather than how people listen to sounds and so we don't fully understand all we would need to measure.

If what we hear makes us always just want to pull it all apart, measure it and only listen to unintegrated sounds then it's not that good at playing music and instead of measuring you could just get something else that actually makes you want to listen to the music.

We do make this much harder by not identifying first what are actually doing it for.

 

[Steve williams]

Hobbyist electrical testers don't have $25,000 test instruments and published work in many articles reviewed extensively by many in the industry

Most hobbyists would spend that money on better audio gear than test equipment IMHO

 

[Steve williams]

Perfect solution for many of us. It depends on what your aim is. If the purpose is to listen to music then listening to the music is the start... and a perfect end. If it all gets you in properly then we don't even have to go any further than that.

If your primary purpose is to measure stuff then the music doesn't matter as all you need is sounds because measurement just doesn't account for the human experience of listening to music. Science has yet to fully map how people listen to music rather than just how people listen to sounds and so we don't fully understand all we would need to measure for.

If what we hear makes us always just want to pull it all apart, measure it and only listen to unintegrated sounds rather than the music then instead of measuring you could just get something else that makes you want to listen to the music.

We do make this much harder by not identifying first what are actually doing it for.

+1

 

[Purite Audio]

yea but you brain will still mess with you, the only way is to not realise you're testing something, the psychological effect of knowing your listen and expecting change will affect the result.

there really is no way round it, not really. whether people accept that fact is immaterial.

when did you disown me father? you only have one son here now so best make the most of it.

I just find that sometimes differences I thought I perceived disappeared when I didn't know which component I was listening to.
Entreq is a super candidate for unsighted comparison , just unplug/ replug and see if you can spot the difference.
Keith.

 

[Purite Audio]

Most hobbyists would spend that money on better audio gear than test equipment IMHO

Usually it is the manufacturer who spends the cash on test equipment , but seemingly not in this particular case!
Keith.

 

[rockitman]

This is why I asked you this question earlier and you did not answer. How did you determine your system needed it and how do I decide my system needs it?


More or less than a 2-channel system and on what basis? We still have no technical theory of what this device does. How are you able to determine all of these things without this knowledge of access/listening tests results of the same?


Hobbyist electrical testers don't have $25,000 test instruments and published work in many articles reviewed extensively by many in the industry.

I didn't know I needed it. I tried it (demo) and liked it. If you know your system, you can trust your ears to make component decisions in your system. I can't imagine doing it any other way.

To set the record straight....You are the one who has allowed all of this Entreq debate to get out of hand. You encouraged trolling by various skeptical members who had zero experience with the product. Your direction and tone is why this forum is losing it's senior members who have been here since the beginning . You are injecting yourself into the fray too much...unheard of for credible forum admins. I suggest you do yourself and the forum a favor and step back a bit and enforce anti trolling rules....

 

[spazmatron]

I just find that sometimes differences I thought I perceived disappeared when I didn't know which component I was listening to.
Entreq is a super candidate for unsighted comparison , just unplug/ replug and see if you can spot the difference.
Keith.

yea i agree, buts its not full proof.

tried the entreq, its not a plug in and then unplug thing. taking it off made my hi fi worse, went thin and was plain wrong but then i went and turned it off at the breaker and then back on a few moments later and all was well.

don't ask me why or how, it does something but really for me was not much of a improvement to my listening experience. i can see why some might buy it based on what happens when you first remove it!

i have no problem with guys buying things like this, i don't care how much they are. its all fun for someone.

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

What is the theory behind hearing it there the most?

Well it is more a hypothesis based on my own listening experience. When I heard my first ever CD (as late as 1985 - Itzhak Perlman / Ashkenasy Beethoven Sonatas) I wondered what the heck had happened to the violin sound. As an advanced violin student at the time, it sounded absolutely nothing like what a violin should sound like. This same "violin" problem persisted for many years whenever I listened to digital. It has really only been in the last decade or so where significant improvements in dithering and resampling algorithms have mitigated the profound effects 16 bit digital had on violin sound. And yes, I noticed problems with other instruments too - it's just that it wasn't nearly as irritating as it was with the violin. Maybe the fact that of all bowed stringed instruments, the violin sits closer than the others in terms of the ear's naturally sensitive frequency region (2K to 4K) has something to do with it. I then found that 24 bit went a very long way to getting violin sound back to what it really should sound like and then again further reducing noise floors as 24 bit equipment improves. So I think getting a noise floor as low as possible has a highly beneficial effect to the point where on the very best 24 bit equipment with super low noise floors and a superlative, all-digital 24 bit recording, violin sound is getting close to reality (but still not there yet). But I can add artificial noise floors to a good recording and the first instruments to "go" are the violins. Followed by the woodwind. As I say, it might have something to with the frequency range of the violin along with the extremely complex low level harmonic structure that a good instrument possesses.

I have not yet formulated a plan for how to test the unit. What I can say is that I would not have thought of half of the steps you took to make your measurements correct! You sure you are a subjectivists and not a measurement type guy???

Yes, I am definitely a subjectivist. I always remain interested in measurement, however, if only to hopefully one day establish exactly what it is that makes sound appealing to me subjectively, but in terms of measurement. Unfortunately, having correlated measurements and subjective experience for decades now, I haven't really found any direct and repeatable relationships between measurements and what I hear, apart from obvious things such as frequency response bumps, etc. You can show me a theoretically poorer jitter plot, for example, versus a "better" one, but I might prefer the sound of the poorer one because of the particular frequencies and levels of jitter involved. Some frequencies don't harm my listening experience like others do. It is precisely the same with noise. When I got the PSP X-Dither module, it enabled me to experiment with dither noise at the 24 bit level. You'd never imagine noise so far down could produce an audible result but it does. I grew to prefer as flat a noise floor as possible. The more noise that exists at high frequencies, the more I dislike what that does for violin sound. The more noise that exists at low frequencies, the more that effects the pace, timing and clarity of the presentation. And yet we are talking about noise levels that even at their very worst, are far, far below the threshold of audibly in their own right. In any event, better just to keep the noise as evenly distributed and as flat as possible in my opinion.

What if measurements show an improvement but listening test results don't?

Well that wouldn't be anything new in audio. How many people don't hear differences between cables or 16 bit versus 24 bit. It never stopped anyone spending thousands on cables or more money on 24 bit downloads. I honestly don't think potential Entreq customers will care if you can't hear a difference. And I am 100% certain existing owners of Entreq equipment definitely won't care.

 

[amirm]

I honestly don't think potential Entreq customers will care if you can't hear a difference.

More than one person insisted today that I listen. Why did they say that then?

Or are you saying that they only care if I find a positive outcome but not if it is negative???

 

[Fiddle Faddle]

yea i agree, buts its not full proof.

tried the entreq, its not a plug in and then unplug thing.

There is a bit of a rubber band effect with Entreq in my experience, spaz. I actually saw it happen when I did my amateur measurements just using the "second sound card" technique. I'd pull the plug and the noise floor did not drop right away. It slowly dropped, then remained somewhat steady after 15 minutes. Same thing happens when it re-connected. Entreq I believe says some time connected is needed for the full results to appear and I do have to say I literally saw this happen with my eyes, not my ears. I think anyone wanting to test Entreq would really want to have the box and cable connected for a full 48 hours to do "with" testing and 24 hours disconnected for "without" testing. I wasn't so pedantic in my tsting because my test rig playback sound card only has a quoted S/N of 117dB at 48 KHz to begin with (and 114 at 96) and I wasn't going to sit there for days when the workstation was needed for other stuff.

Oddly enough, in my first experienced that was a failure (the one with the "antenna" interconnect), I could see the high frequency noise floor change immediately when the Entreq was connected / disconnected. But after building a "proper" interconnect, I then witnessed the rubber band effect.

I actually did the test a few times to make sure what I was seeing was repeatable and representative and was not due to some other factors unrelated to Entreq.