Magico M3

[FrantzM]

I'd love to get my speaker designer back in-room again, now that I've taken things to where they are and (in my mind) dealt with room issues that had been in the way.

I would expect that he could wring a little more blood from the turnip.

AGreed

@microstrip

General population? That is one of the fallacy that drives the business side of our hobby. Thinking that audiophiles hearing abilities are , allow me this neologism, superiorly different to the "General Population". We're not especially when it comes to children and women who hears things we, the mostly 50 and more, physiologically can't ... and they are not audiophiles... Can safely advance that last part with no fear of being wrong.

@everybody
Now back to Magico. They seem to have a marvelous speaker in the M3 if it weren't for my new enthusiasm about horns, I would have been pleased to wait for one of myfavorites speaker the Q3 to fall in price while people are replacing them with M3.
About Jim Smith , I like the way he approaches things and share his philosophy on Sound Reproduction in the Home. I also do believe in subwoofer and prefer to use them as I have stated a billion times, with full range speakers rather than with mini-monitor however potent some of these may appear to be in the low bass..

@AL. M.
Hearing differently at the physiological level doesn't mean that there aren't things we like in commonality. I do understand the preferences. I do understand that we prioritize... I do know however that one thing we tend to like is correct bass reproduction. It could well be physiological too. The truth , very few know what correct bass is about and the education can be jolting, unsettling .. then it dawn on the listener, it is understood at a deep level that once the bass is correctly reproduced , the rest of the reproduction tend to take a new level of realism, of believability... Truism: Once the foundation is laid then everything else falls into place. correct bass is that foundation.

 

[Al M.]

@AL. M.
Hearing differently at the physiological level doesn't mean that there aren't things we like in commonality. I do understand the preferences. I do understand that we prioritize... I do know however that one thing we tend to like is correct bass reproduction. It could well be physiological too. The truth , very few know what correct bass is about and the education can be jolting, unsettling .. then it dawn on the listener, it is understood at a deep level that once the bass is correctly reproduced , the rest of the reproduction tend to take a new level of realism, of believability... Truism: Once the foundation is laid then everything else falls into place. correct bass is that foundation.

Agreed.

One of the unsettling things can be to realize that bass is NOT necessarily fast, for example from stand-up bass. Depending on distance from the instrument, acoustics etc. it can sound rather 'fat' and 'rounded'. There is actually something like artificially 'fast' bass reproduction. On the other hand, on other occasions bass can indeed sound really fast and the sound reproduction at home needs to be able to accurately portray the quick start/stop of notes as well as the pitch (avoiding the one-pitch phenomenon in the bass).

What I notice time and again in concerts of unamplified live music is how strangely 'airy' bass sounds often seem, their frequently tremendous 'weight' notwithstanding. You rarely hear that airiness from sound reproduction.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

AGreed

AL. M.
Hearing differently at the physiological level doesn't mean that there aren't things we like in commonality. I do understand the preferences. I do understand that we prioritize... I do know however that one thing we tend to like is correct bass reproduction. It could well be physiological too. The truth , very few know what correct bass is about and the education can be jolting, unsettling .. then it dawn on the listener, it is understood at a deep level that once the bass is correctly reproduced , the rest of the reproduction tend to take a new level of realism, of believability... Truism: Once the foundation is laid then everything else falls into place. correct bass is that foundation.

as far an appreciation for the overall effect of bass reproduction fully realized; it was when I turned off my bass towers, which only extend up to the mid 30hz region, and I heard how that effected the degree of realism of vocals, and horns, and the high frequency extension and airiness.

in our daily lives we take for granted the overtones and completeness that deep bass gives us in all sounds. so when we hear it 'right' in the reproduced music we miss it when it's taken away.

 

[microstrip]

(...)

@microstrip

General population? That is one of the fallacy that drives the business side of our hobby. Thinking that audiophiles hearing abilities are , allow me this neologism, superiorly different to the "General Population". We're not especially when it comes to children and women who hears things we, the mostly 50 and more, physiologically can't ... and they are not audiophiles... Can safely advance that last part with no fear of being wrong.
(...)

Frantz,

Unfortunately you are mixing hearing abilities with perceiving abilities and the capability of picking specific preferences. And then add the old stories about women and children. Why not also bats?

People are free to go on relying on what they read if they fear using what they listen. But please do not mix basic concepts.

Can you confirm if you ever listened to a system in a room set by Jim Smith?

 

[microstrip]

as far an appreciation for the overall effect of bass reproduction fully realized; it was when I turned off my bass towers, which only extend up to the mid 30hz region, and I heard how that effected the degree of realism of vocals, and horns, and the high frequency extension and airiness.

in our daily lives we take for granted the overtones and completeness that deep bass gives us in all sounds. so when we hear it 'right' in the reproduced music we miss it when it's taken away.

Properly tuned bass has this effect - and yes, as soon as we turn it on we realize what we are missing. But I have found that 90% of the times a subwoofer only adds bass depth and destroys realism and airiness. Your bass towers are part of an integrated system, they are not just simple "subwoofers"!

Subs are just one of many ways, not a mandatory path. YMMV.

 

[FrantzM]

Frantz,

Unfortunately you are mixing hearing abilities with perceiving abilities and the capability of picking specific preferences. And then add the old stories about women and children. Why not also bats?

People are free to go on relying on what they read if they fear using what they listen. But please do not mix basic concepts.

Can you confirm if you ever listened to a system in a room set by Jim Smith?

Yeah Right! Blind can't see and we (assuming you belong to those over 50) can't hear a thing above 15 KHz .. Not Old stories... FACTS!!!

Basic concepts: you can't hear perceive something if it is below the sensitivity threshold of your apparatus.

Never heard a Jim Smith voiced system... Like his approach nonetheless.. Believe he brought something else to Peter A and Cincy2 systems ... Do I need to listen to a system he voiced to form an opinion? Do you?

Back to the M3. Always though that Q3 plus SUbs (mulitple) would be a killer combo... Same with the M3 or the Q5 or the Q7 or the S5 ....

 

[Al M.]

Properly tuned bass has this effect - and yes, as soon as we turn it on we realize what we are missing. But I have found that 90% of the times a subwoofer only adds bass depth and destroys realism and airiness. Your bass towers are part of an integrated system, they are not just simple "subwoofers"!

Subs are just one of many ways, not a mandatory path. YMMV.

Agree that subwoofers can be problematic this way, depending (in my case the ASC SubTrap is helpful). Bass towers can be advantageous but you loose some flexibility of optimal location just for deep bass regardless of the main speaker position. But apparently this is not an issue in Mike's room, which has very generous dimensions.

 

[Al M.]

as far an appreciation for the overall effect of bass reproduction fully realized; it was when I turned off my bass towers, which only extend up to the mid 30hz region, and I heard how that effected the degree of realism of vocals, and horns, and the high frequency extension and airiness.

in our daily lives we take for granted the overtones and completeness that deep bass gives us in all sounds. so when we hear it 'right' in the reproduced music we miss it when it's taken away.

I suppose your bass towers are flat to the mid 30 Hz region, but if the roll-off is not steep, they should extend further.

 

[microstrip]

Yeah Right! Blind can't see and we (assuming you belong to those over 50) can't hear a thing above 15 KHz .. Not Old stories... FACTS!!!

Basic concepts: you can't hear perceive something if it is below the sensitivity threshold of your apparatus.

Never heard a Jim Smith voiced system... Like his approach nonetheless.. Believe he brought something else to Peter A and Cincy2 systems ... Do I need to listen to a system he voiced to form an opinion? Do you?

Back to the M3. Always though that Q3 plus SUbs (mulitple) would be a killer combo... Same with the M3 or the Q5 or the Q7 or the S5 ....

Again mixing basic but vague concepts. Your basic sentence only moves us away from the difference between hearing and perceiving.

And yes, considering what I have read here and in the book I would need to listen to one or more systems set by Jim to form an opinion.

Considering speakers, I only comment on those I have listened to. If I speculate I say so clearly, and try to explain why I think so.

 

[FrantzM]

Bass and subwoofers are favorite subject of mine.. Can we move this discussion to another thread ?
I think we are hijacking the M3 thread.

But I must, no i am compelled to ( , ) to answer to microstrip..

There is that strange duality that audiophiles constantly straddle: On one side they believe in a given designer words and philosophy.. On another they believe they can fold the designer philosophy into theirs .. thus the constant tweaks and changes and moves... to make something better than the designer intended, No one use the same combo their favorite designers use, there is always that personal mix of condiment to make things our own ..
Marrying subwoofer with mains is not an impossibility, i repeat it. it is not easy. Then again Please but , Please, tell me how wringing the absolute best from anything, can be easy.. especially in the case of the WBF at the level of excellence many modern systems are? Really People!!!!!! So yeah! it is difficult to make bass work well and Mike L would be the first to tell you that you just don't get his bass towers integrated with the main without Work.. lot of it.. Or anyone with integrated subs.. And some people with systems of the highest caliber ( Marty's former system) Steve Williams, Al M, LL 21, etc. and many others use happily Other subs and from most reports including my own (for Steve's system) extremely well integrated...So this is another fallacy. Since this is life and death one can revere and enjoy in this kind of reassuring fallacy .. It remains a fallacy.

So let's move this sub-discussion (Pun intended) to another thread...

back to the M3 (with subs) :b

 

[microstrip]

Bass and subwoofers are favorite subject of mine.. Can we move this discussion to another thread ?
I think we are hijacking the M3 thread.

But I must, no i am compelled to ( , ) to answer to microstrip..

There is that strange duality that audiophiles constantly straddle: On one side they believe in a given designer words and philosophy.. On another they believe they can fold the designer philosophy into theirs .. thus the constant tweaks and changes and moves... to make something better than the designer intended, No one use the same combo their favorite designers use, there is always that personal mix of condiment to make things our own ..
Marrying subwoofer with mains is not an impossibility, i repeat it. it is not easy. Then again Please but , Please, tell me how wringing the absolute best from anything, can be easy.. especially in the case of the WBF at the level of excellence many modern systems are? Really People!!!!!! So yeah! it is difficult to make bass work well and Mike L would be the first to tell you that you just don't get his bass towers integrated with the main without Work.. lot of it.. Or anyone with integrated subs.. And some people with systems of the highest caliber ( Marty's former system) Steve Williams, Al M, LL 21, etc. and many others use happily Other subs and from most reports including my own (for Steve's system) extremely well integrated...So this is another fallacy. Since this is life and death one can revere and enjoy in this kind of reassuring fallacy .. It remains a fallacy.

So let's move this sub-discussion (Pun intended) to another thread...

back to the M3 (with subs) :b

Just a quick note - I am a firm believer in proper low bass speakers (subs) - we see them in Wilson Audio, Magico and Eminent Acoustics. I have a JLAudio CR-1 crossover in my rack, I am waiting for delivery of a pair of F113s.

But I feel unhappy when people get a pair of great usd 100k speakers and consider they can match it with random subwoofers. If you pay a fortune for a special exotic speaker box to fulfill the idea of the speaker designer, why compromising it elsewhere?

If I ever get a pair of XLF's, I will happily accept the offer of a pair Thor's and controllers! But nothing less!
And for the M3 or MPro I would ask for Q-sub's.

Disclaimer - I have not listened to these subs's....

 

[jeff1225]

What main speakers will you use the F113's with?

 

[adyc]

as far an appreciation for the overall effect of bass reproduction fully realized; it was when I turned off my bass towers, which only extend up to the mid 30hz region, and I heard how that effected the degree of realism of vocals, and horns, and the high frequency extension and airiness.

in our daily lives we take for granted the overtones and completeness that deep bass gives us in all sounds. so when we hear it 'right' in the reproduced music we miss it when it's taken away.

I agree. Recently, I add a pair of sub and crossover to 30Hz. I am amazed about the difference they make. The subs add a lot of body and presence to the sound without affecting the rest of sound spectrum. Now I'm a firm believer of subs.

 

[PeterA]

Yeah Right! Blind can't see and we (assuming you belong to those over 50) can't hear a thing above 15 KHz .. Not Old stories... FACTS!!!

Basic concepts: you can't hear perceive something if it is below the sensitivity threshold of your apparatus.

Never heard a Jim Smith voiced system... Like his approach nonetheless.. Believe he brought something else to Peter A and Cincy2 systems ... Do I need to listen to a system he voiced to form an opinion? Do you?

Back to the M3. Always though that Q3 plus SUbs (mulitple) would be a killer combo... Same with the M3 or the Q5 or the Q7 or the S5 ....

I learned a lot from Jim Smith in the day and half that he was working on my room. I also joined him for dinner with another one of his clients and discussed his thoughts on audio, the industry, etc. It was a lot of fun. He helped me to become a better, and more critical, listener. He taught me to hear how various speaker positioning adjustments effected the sound, and he gave me a better awareness and appreciation of the terms, Dynamics, Tone, and Presence. He achieved his goal, and mine, by the time he left, namely, to increase my emotional involvement with my favorite music. Jim wants to improve an existing system, not sell you gear. He did not suggest upgrades, or gear changes.

I got a better appreciation for how dramatically the sound of a system can change with speaker and listener position. Unless these are optimized, one can not fully realize the potential of his system. I don't know what Magico does or thinks about speaker set up. They sell their speakers through a dealer network and the dealers should, in my view, be qualified to optimize their client's Magico speakers in their systems. Sadly, not all dealers have this expertise. Jim Smith discusses that in his book. These are skills that have often been lost within the shrinking high end dealerships. Few dealers know how to properly set up a cartridge and tonearm. It is unfortunate, but this is the reality in many places and we are often left to seek the advice of independent consultants and fellow audiophiles.

Jim Smith and I came to the conclusion, that my system sounded better without the two JL Audio F110 subs that I had, after much effort trying to integrate them. There were trade offs because they did add extension and impact to the sound, but for the type of music I most listen to, which at that time, was smaller scale acoustic music like string quartets and concertos, the subs detracted slightly from the overall clarity, and timbral accuracy, of the superb Mini IIs, so I sold them. My room is particularly problematic because of the two alcoves on each side of the protruding fireplace. I think this is why we could not get great integration with the subs.

To take this back to Magico, I can share this: I asked Alon Wolf during a demo at one of his dealerships, and then a Magico rep at the factory about adding subwoofers to their speakers. They both told me not to add a pair of their subs to my Mini IIs. They said that if I wanted more extension and impact, I should buy one of their three-way designs, and then add subs later, if it was necessary. They feel that there is too much of a frequency gap between the Mini II and their S or Q subs to work effectively. Driver integration and overall coherence is a major quality of Magico speakers, and I did not want to jeopardize that by adding subs.

 

[microstrip]

What main speakers will you use the F113's with?

The SoundLab A1 Px's.

 

[adyc]

To take this back to Magico, I can share this: I asked Alon Wolf during a demo at one of his dealerships, and then a Magico rep at the factory about adding subwoofers to their speakers. They both told me not to add a pair of their subs to my Mini IIs. They said that if I wanted more extension and impact, I should buy one of their three-way designs, and then add subs later, if it was necessary. They feel that there is too much of a frequency gap between the Mini II and their S or Q subs to work effectively. Driver integration and overall coherence is a major quality of Magico speakers, and I did not want to jeopardize that by adding subs.

I agree. I think the sub should at most crossover to 40 Hz. Otherwise, the integration is never perfect.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

I see we are moving away from the M3 and this thread has a strong flavor of subs ... So be it! and I am jumping in!

I do not have much proof of that although I am certain it exists that the subs and mains must have, if not the same but very close dynamic abilities in their range of operation. If you have a sub capable of say 120 dB at 40 Hz it will be a problem if your mains with their associated electronics are only capable of say 100 dB. We are talking about transients , the kind many refuse to discuss about here but that are part and parcel of music reproduction and that usually are much more loud than we realize .. That is one area where horn speakers just trump anything else .. Audiophile like to call this "jump" , or "speed" .. it is the ability to go loud when the music instantaneously, suddenly calls for it ... Back to subs and mains if your subs are more capable than mains in term of dynamic ability .. there will be a disconnect as the subs will be singing their signal when the mains would not or compress it ... Music would call for everything going for 2 msec st 110 dB subs goes there no problem but mains refuses .. The ear will hear something disconnected disjointed etc ... The thing is: it is pretty easy for a good sub to have that kind of dynamic capability at say 40 Hz ... 110 dB at 1 meter? many good subs would do that rather easily the JL Auido JL 113 would .. what about the mains? then if they can't in their operating bandwidth? where the ear is most sensitive and the brain waiting to hear more information in the range , for example from 500 Hz to 2 khz and receive more info from 40 Hz and below? Response? Disconnect .. lot of sub sound. The audiophile proclaims "slow" bass. "non-integration", "no texture" and the entire carnival of audiophile negatives bass cliches and qualifiers ...
There is a lot more that makes the match between subs and mains difficult especially when it comes to mini-monitors and subs .. it can however be achieved..
On this what I heard from the Q3 ( I haste to say I have not heard the M3 or the Mpro or the S5 MKII or the S3 or the Q7 Mark II or the Magico Subs or .... Ok? microstrip? ) was an ability to play loud at all frequencies. It remained the same in term of sonic signature playing soft or loud everywhere, be it in the bass or elsewhere ... I think I read something in Soundstage about the S5 or was it the Q3, of a lack of dynamic compression with many Magico speakers: FR was the same at 85 dB as it was at 95 dB ....Great candidates for potent subwooferS... the M3 seems to be at least as good .. Great candidate for subwooferS too

 

[BruceD]

To take this back to Magico, I can share this: I asked Alon Wolf during a demo at one of his dealerships, and then a Magico rep at the factory about adding subwoofers to their speakers. They both told me not to add a pair of their subs to my Mini IIs. They said that if I wanted more extension and impact, I should buy one of their three-way designs, and then add subs later, if it was necessary. They feel that there is too much of a frequency gap between the Mini II and their S or Q subs to work effectively. Driver integration and overall coherence is a major quality of Magico speakers, and I did not want to jeopardize that by adding subs.

I agree(for once!) with the Wolfman on this-- Franco Serblin the esteemed SFG Homage designer was asked at an Audio show what Sub would he "mate" with the Homages--

his reply --none!

By the way PA good Choice there--I like the Magico Minis--I feel the best Speaker they've made-- personally My taste doesn't get with the other bigger models--too aggressive for my ears.

Good Listening

BruceD

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I suppose your bass towers are flat to the mid 30 Hz region, but if the roll-off is not steep, they should extend further.

the main towers have a fixed roll off from the high 30hz region, down 3db at 25hz and down 6db at 20 hz.

the bass towers have an adjustment range for the crossover dial up to 60hz, down to 20hz.....but the highest I've tried it is 37hz, right now it's at 35hz. I don't know how steep the roll off is exactly for the bass towers or what the settings co-relate to exactly. I do it by ear.

there are also bass gain, 'Q' and extension adjustments, as well as a low filter too which I turn off.

every adjustment is quite audible with the smallest change.

 

[Al M.]

I agree. I think the sub should at most crossover to 40 Hz. Otherwise, the integration is never perfect.

I wouldn't have the roll-off frequency with the Mini II set above 40 Hz. However, if I understand correctly, Magico prefers the (digitally controlled) QSub and SSub with a steep roll-off. In that case they really would not match with the Mini II. A more traditional sub with a gentle roll-off would.