Koetsu

[jeff1225]

Been using the same DB Systems protractor for nearly the past 20 years, easy peasy as Mike said.

david

Just to clarify David, you use this with the sliding base of the SME and SME fixed headshells correct?

 

[ddk]

Just to clarify David, you use this with the sliding base of the SME and SME fixed headshells correct?

And non-fixed headshells.
david

 

[ddk]

Looking at the Mint protractor I don’t see what’s so special about it you still have two null points to line your cartridge up with like any other protractor on the market, what am I missing?

david

 

[iaxel]

Everything has a flavor Peter the trick is finding components with the least amount of noticeable character that get out of the way of the main event, i.e. the recording. That's what the AS does, it's a foundation for the medium you'll be surprised how much information is hidden in the grooves of a standard lp. A tool like the AS and 3012 not only get out of the way but also help to bring out what's in those recordings. The SME 3012-r is very different from the other SME arms starting with core design it's as far as you can get from the IV & V. I know this will upset some but it's how it is, the 3012-r is like Fiji mineral water and the IV/V is Pepsi. They were designed when the tt trend was light belt drives and mostly suspended and what they have in common is shitty bass. They ALL lack extension and many are susceptible to all kinds of feedback and mudding affecting everything else too, the IV & V were designed with these tables in mind that's why I think the bass quality is so artificial and strangely with those arms.

By skill I meant arm/cartridge setup. The only way to get it is to play around and it doesn't have to be expensive carts, buy a lot of used ones for a couple of hundred bucks and go at it. All you need is a protractor, maybe a SHURE scale and your ears. The same goes for tonearms play around with a few that's where the experience comes from and you'll be able to tell what's going on in your vinyl setup. The 3012-R is a gift and will cut your experience time if you trust my input, many here and on Myles's site have tried the 3012-r and it's become their main tonearm.

david

Very interesting insight! Thanks!
How do you find the relatively new SME M2-12R compared to the 3012R? Is it in any way (apart from shape) comparable to the 3012R?

 

[Tango]

Are we going off topic too much?

 

[ddk]

Very interesting insight! Thanks!
How do you find the relatively new SME M2-12R compared to the 3012R? Is it in any way (apart from shape) comparable to the 3012R?

The M2 is a decent arm but just a shadow of 3012-R.

Are we going off topic too much?

Yes & no because tonearms were also part of the original topic but it's Shakti's thread and he can ask Steve to move the last lot of posts to a new thread called SME arms or something like that if he feels that they don't belong.

david

david

 

[PeterA]

Looking at the Mint protractor I don’t see what’s so special about it you still have two null points to line your cartridge up with like any other protractor on the market, what am I missing?

david

David, I find the best part about the MINT are the two parallel lines at the null points which aid in the alignment of the cantilever, ie. Zenith rotation. If you look up the manual on line, you will find some excellent photographs showing this. The MINT also approximates the thickness of a heavy LP. If one uses a thin paper protractor, as soon as one plays an LP, the overhang, SRA and VTF change because the LP is thicker than the paper. This may or may not be a significant change to be audible and most people I don't think care much about it. But accuracy variance from initial set up to playing different thickness and cutting angle LPs later does not seem to concern people. Off topic again.

 

[ddk]

David, I find the best part about the MINT are the two parallel lines at the null points which aid in the alignment of the cantilever, ie. Zenith rotation. If you look up the manual on line, you will find some excellent photographs showing this. The MINT also approximates the thickness of a heavy LP. If one uses a thin paper protractor, as soon as one plays an LP, the overhang, SRA and VTF change because the LP is thicker than the paper. This may or may not be a significant change to be audible and most people I don't think care much about it. But accuracy variance from initial set up to playing different thickness and cutting angle LPs later does not seem to concern people. Off topic again.

I see that but protractors come with parallel lines too and have a complete graph which allows you to plot your arm's travel across the entire lp in case you need to make some adjustments, you don't have that with the Mint. Thickness is irrelevant you set VTA/SRA by ear and need to use a record anyway, but that's only my opinion.

david

 

[Mike Lavigne]

David, I find the best part about the MINT are the two parallel lines at the null points which aid in the alignment of the cantilever, ie. Zenith rotation. If you look up the manual on line, you will find some excellent photographs showing this. The MINT also approximates the thickness of a heavy LP. If one uses a thin paper protractor, as soon as one plays an LP, the overhang, SRA and VTF change because the LP is thicker than the paper. This may or may not be a significant change to be audible and most people I don't think care much about it. But accuracy variance from initial set up to playing different thickness and cutting angle LPs later does not seem to concern people. Off topic again.

+1 on those null point aids.

and......the fine line of the etched glass is (1) very visible under strong light at the weird angles we look at through the magnifying glass, and (2) the glass is heavy and solid enough and has a bit of grippyness to stay in one place on a platter. the rounded edges are easily intentionally finely nudged but stay in one spot too. in use 'just right'. and (3) the glass seems likely less harmful to a stylus than paper or metal would be.

 

[PeterA]

I see that but protractors come with parallel lines too and have a complete graph which allows you to plot your arm's entire travel across the lp in case you need to make some adjustments, you don't have that with the Mint. Thickness is irrelevant you set VTA/SRA by ear and need to use a record anyway, but that's only my opinion.

david

I'm not saying the MINT is better or worse than anything else. I have only compared it to the stock protractor that came with my SME arm. Yes, I set VTA/SRA by ear also, but if one starts with an overhang set approximately at the level of an LP, it gets it closer. Are you saying that if you set overhang on the platter surface with a paper protractor that that parameter does not change when you later play thick or thin LPs? Or are you saying it is not audible and does not matter? Don't you agree that overhang changes with VTA/SRA adjustments, as does VTF?

 

[ddk]

+1 on those null point aids.

and......the fine line of the etched glass is (1) very visible under strong light at the weird angles we look at through the magnifying glass, and (2) the glass is heavy and solid enough and has a bit of grippyness to stay in one place on a platter. the rounded edges are easily intentionally finely nudged but stay in one spot too. in use 'just right'. and (3) the glass seems likely less harmful to a stylus than paper or metal would be.

If it's a better, easier tool Mike for sure but in case of the SME sled it seems to be compromised and I don't see the advantage and you're limited to a single cartridge.

david

 

[ddk]

I'm not saying the MINT is better or worse than anything else. I have only compared it to the stock protractor that came with my SME arm. Yes, I set VTA/SRA by ear also, but if one starts with an overhang set approximately at the level of an LP, it gets it closer. Are you saying that if you set overhang on the platter surface with a paper protractor that that parameter does not change when you later play thick or thin LPs? Or are you saying it is not audible and does not matter? Don't you agree that overhang changes with VTA/SRA adjustments, as does VTF?

I haven't seen overhang change with record thickness but use a record under the protractor if that's your concern. I have never come across a case that overhang is effected by VTA, SRA or VTF.

david

 

[microstrip]

I'm not saying the MINT is better or worse than anything else. I have only compared it to the stock protractor that came with my SME arm. Yes, I set VTA/SRA by ear also, but if one starts with an overhang set approximately at the level of an LP, it gets it closer. Are you saying that if you set overhang on the platter surface with a paper protractor that that parameter does not change when you later play thick or thin LPs? Or are you saying it is not audible and does not matter? Don't you agree that overhang changes with VTA/SRA adjustments, as does VTF?

In the SME V you just mount the cartridge exactly parallel to the small size of the arm shell and then adjust the arm distance with the help of the rotating protractor. IMHO it is much more precise than fiddling around with other types protactors. Surely we must stick to their preferred geometry.

 

[PeterA]

In the SME V you just mount the cartridge exactly parallel to the small size of the arm shell and then adjust the arm distance with the help of the rotating protractor. IMHO it is much more precise than fiddling around with other types protactors. Surely we must stick to their preferred geometry.

Agreed, but sometimes the cantilever angle is slightly different from the edge of the cartridge, so if you line up the cartridge to the headshell, it MAY not be as accurate. Some people think precision here matters, others think ballpark is close enough. I agree that much of this is inaudible.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Agreed, but sometimes the cantilever angle is slightly different from the edge of the cartridge, so if you line up the cartridge to the headshell, it MAY not be as accurate. Some people think precision here matters, others think ballpark is close enough. I agree that much of this is inaudible.

interestingly; if you use vdH cartridges much, quickly you realize that the cartridge body and even the windings and magnets are not necessarily lined up with the cantilever. so you have to sight azimuth off the cantilever if you are using a 'sight' approach. not yet seen a perfectly aligned vdH body and cantilever, but the odds are a few have to be out there properly aligned accidentally. it's a good lesson to learn and always consider.

 

[microstrip]

interestingly; if you use vdH cartridges much, quickly you realize that the cartridge body and even the windings and magnets are not necessarily lined up with the cantilever. so you have to sight azimuth off the cantilever if you are using a 'sight' approach. not yet seen a perfectly aligned vdH body and cantilever, but the odds are a few have to be out there properly aligned accidentally. it's a good lesson to learn and always consider.

IMHO if you align by 'sight' using a disk protactor you risk making an error larger than using the straight body of the cartridge - one degree deviation in a 3 mm cantilever results in a 50 micron offset, not perceptible when looking from front or side view. Curved body cartridges are really a nuisance!

Curiously my van den Hul Black Beauty has an almost perfect cantilever - I have photographed it using a stereo microscope and the error was barely perceptible in an amplified zoom. At that time I was thinking about correcting for it when assembling the cartridge, but considered it was not enough to deserve correction.

Yes, I know some purist audiophiles will tell us that tuning of cartridges should be carried only by ear!

 

[Uk Paul]

Different carts require different methods or templates, and whichever gets the stylus perpendicular to the spindle and at the best vertical angle is the one to use.. The fine line cantilever 'guides' that Peter refers to are ideal for carts like vdh, Aidas, Lyra etc, but Koetsu need body aligment guides, and then you are only assuming that the stylus is correctly aligned.

Maybe a seperate set up thread would be useful.

 

[PeterA]

Different carts require different methods or templates, and whichever gets the stylus perpendicular to the spindle and at the best vertical angle is the one to use.. The fine line cantilever 'guides' that Peter refers to are ideal for carts like vdh, Aidas, Lyra etc, but Koetsu need body aligment guides, and then you are only assuming that the stylus is correctly aligned.

Maybe a seperate set up thread would be useful.

Great idea. Who wants to start one? I'm having a rather interesting discussion right now with my Boston Area Audio Group buddies on this very subject.

 

[mulveling]

I was bored and made a quick "Koellage" of my Koetsus, lol. Collected over the years. Hard to turn down a pretty face. I noticed AcousticSounds.com had been using my 1st Onyx image as the thumbnail to their Cartridges store, but now they're back to an ugly Denon

Both black headshells are Fidelity Research, the wood one is a vintage Koetsu (1980s?) and then the Graham Phantom wand.

 

[shakti]

I was bored and made a quick "Koellage" of my Koetsus, lol. Collected over the years. Hard to turn down a pretty face. I noticed AcousticSounds.com had been using my 1st Onyx image as the thumbnail to their Cartridges store, but now they're back to an ugly Denon

Both black headshells are Fidelity Research, the wood one is a vintage Koetsu (1980s?) and then the Graham Phantom wand.

Great pics, Thank you!!!!!