Koetsu

[PeterA]

Everything has a flavor Peter the trick is finding components with the least amount of noticeable character that get out of the way of the main event, i.e. the recording. That's what the AS does, it's a foundation for the medium you'll be surprised how much information is hidden in the grooves of a standard lp. A tool like the AS and 3012 not only get out of the way but also help to bring out what's in those recordings. The SME 3012-r is very different from the other SME arms starting with core design it's as far as you can get from the IV & V. I know this will upset some but it's how it is, the 3012-r is like Fiji mineral water and the IV/V is Pepsi. They were designed when the tt trend was light belt drives and mostly suspended and what they have in common is shitty bass. They ALL lack extension and many are susceptible to all kinds of feedback and mudding affecting everything else too, the IV & V were designed with these tables in mind that's why I think the bass quality is so artificial and strangely with those arms.

By skill I meant arm/cartridge setup. The only way to get it is to play around and it doesn't have to be expensive carts, buy a lot of used ones for a couple of hundred bucks and go at it. All you need is a protractor, maybe a SHURE scale and your ears. The same goes for tonearms play around with a few that's where the experience comes from and you'll be able to tell what's going on in your vinyl setup. The 3012-R is a gift and will cut your experience time if you trust my input, many here and on Myles's site have tried the 3012-r and it's become their main tonearm.

david

Thank you David. I was not aware of those design considerations behind the SME IV/V. I had assumed they were designed concurrently with the Model 30 turntable, just as my SME V-12 and SME 30/12 were. The turntable must have come later. It too is a belt drive with a relatively light platter and is suspended. It is also not that heavy at only 94 lbs. Here is a quote from Fremer's 2003 review specifically about the bass performance of the Model 30 with SME IV.Vi arm and Sumiko Celebration cartridge:

Rock-Solid Bass
Bass control, definition, extension, dynamics, and harmonics were better through the SME 30/2 than through any other turntable I've ever heard, including the Rockport. This is the one place where the SME had a decisive edge. Image solidity and textural clarity in the bottom octaves were unsurpassed by a wide margin in my experience—which includes the Boulder-Yorke combo, and the Yorke is damn good on the bottom. You have to experience a familiar, well-recorded timpani thwack through the SME to understand what I'm talking about.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/sme-model-302-turntable-page-3#dqhifcz5905ebBSW.99

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, we should remember David is at a sort of pinnacle, and doesn’t do small talk, half opinions. I suspect he would disagree w Fremer pretty vehemently on his conclusions.
All that matters Peter, is are YOU happy with V-12 bass on your 30? If you are, no one else’s opinion matters, no matter how experienced they are. Evidently David really doesn’t rate the V or V-12, and so your excellent user experience matters not one jot to him.
My guess is if the AS2000 was being sold via dealers today, a V-12 might well be an arm of choice, but since David is the only conduit for the small number being produced, we’ll never know about the V-12 on it, he ain’t gonna install one.

 

[PeterA]

No doubt Marc. Sorry to take the thread off topic and away from Koetsu.

 

[Uk Paul / Z:Axis Audio]

I'm about to begin to get the armboard machined to fit my SME V to my TTS, so may be able to comment more on the comparison between it and the SEAC 506, though not the V12 that Peter has, mine being a 9". But, on the subject of bass, I can say that the 506 is going to be a tough one to beat. My IV didn't get close to the quality of the 506, but maybe the V will, though the intention is not to have 2 arm cart combinations that compete, the SME will have a diffrerent signature and presentation deliberatley, and may carry a London Ref or Koetsu. The SAEC is extremely clean, controllled and extended when you figure out the geometry as it was not designed for 12" LP's..

 

[spiritofmusic]

Peter, that’s ok.
Indeed my presence on a Koetsu thread isn’t right, I struggled with my one and only experience some three decades ago.

 

[jeff1225]

Everything has a flavor Peter the trick is finding components with the least amount of noticeable character that get out of the way of the main event, i.e. the recording. That's what the AS does, it's a foundation for the medium you'll be surprised how much information is hidden in the grooves of a standard lp. A tool like the AS and 3012 not only get out of the way but also help to bring out what's in those recordings. The SME 3012-r is very different from the other SME arms starting with core design it's as far as you can get from the IV & V. I know this will upset some but it's how it is, the 3012-r is like Fiji mineral water and the IV/V is Pepsi. They were designed when the tt trend was light belt drives and mostly suspended and what they have in common is shitty bass. They ALL lack extension and many are susceptible to all kinds of feedback and mudding affecting everything else too, the IV & V were designed with these tables in mind that's why I think the bass quality is so artificial and strangely with those arms.

By skill I meant arm/cartridge setup. The only way to get it is to play around and it doesn't have to be expensive carts, buy a lot of used ones for a couple of hundred bucks and go at it. All you need is a protractor, maybe a SHURE scale and your ears. The same goes for tonearms play around with a few that's where the experience comes from and you'll be able to tell what's going on in your vinyl setup. The 3012-R is a gift and will cut your experience time if you trust my input, many here and on Myles's site have tried the 3012-r and it's become their main tonearm.

david

David,
Do you use any special protractor with the 3012R or just the heavy paper one that comes with the arm?

Thanks,
JEff

 

[Mike Lavigne]

David,
Do you use any special protractor with the 3012R or just the heavy paper one that comes with the arm?

Thanks,
JEff

I assume there is a Mint LP protractor available for the 3012R?

 

[jeff1225]

I assume there is a Mint LP protractor available for the 3012R?

It is not. The SME 3012R uses a sliding base so there is no fixed point to set overhang. When I communicated with the owner of Mint, he said he could make a protractor but you'd have to keep the base locked and use non-SME headshells to adjust overhang.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

It is not. The SME 3012R uses a sliding base so there is no fixed point to set overhang. When I communicated with the owner of Mint, he said he could make a protractor but you'd have to keep the base locked and use non-SME headshells to adjust overhang.

that sucks. the Mint Lp is easy peasy.

 

[PeterA]

I assume there is a Mint LP protractor available for the 3012R?

No, the SME arms with sliding bases don't work unless you provide a specific cartridge mounting hole to stylus tip distance to Yip for your particular cartridge. I have done this for two cartridge/arm combinations. Remember, each cartridge may be slightly off to, so the SME arms present a slight inconvenience for MINT, but it can be worked around. The MINT is a very nice protractor and seems to be very precise.

 

[Uk Paul / Z:Axis Audio]

So theoretically you should use pivot to spindle distance, and the fixed nature of the design takes care of the rest, as in iv and v?

Btw, the SME protractors seem very basic, so I did a laser one which 2 friends have used and both very happy with the result, one of which compared it with acoustical systems and got the same result, (9"), and it did improve upon sme original for inner groove tracking.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

No, the SME arms with sliding bases don't work unless you provide a specific cartridge mounting hole to stylus tip distance to Yip for your particular cartridge. I have done this for two cartridge/arm combinations. Remember, each cartridge may be slightly off to, so the SME arms present a slight inconvenience for MINT, but it can be worked around. The MINT is a very nice protractor and seems to be very precise.

the Mint Lp completely eliminates ambiguity. but when ambiguity is built into the arm/headshell design, then there you go.

I'm not suggesting these issues cannot be overcome, but it does make it more involved to do so.

 

[ddk]

This was the Linn, Voigt, Pink Triangle, AR, TD160S era, 50lbs and below.

david

Thank you David. I was not aware of those design considerations behind the SME IV/V. I had assumed they were designed concurrently with the Model 30 turntable, just as my SME V-12 and SME 30/12 were. The turntable must have come later. It too is a belt drive with a relatively light platter and is suspended. It is also not that heavy at only 94 lbs. Here is a quote from Fremer's 2003 review specifically about the bass performance of the Model 30 with SME IV.Vi arm and Sumiko Celebration cartridge:

Rock-Solid Bass
Bass control, definition, extension, dynamics, and harmonics were better through the SME 30/2 than through any other turntable I've ever heard, including the Rockport. This is the one place where the SME had a decisive edge. Image solidity and textural clarity in the bottom octaves were unsurpassed by a wide margin in my experience—which includes the Boulder-Yorke combo, and the Yorke is damn good on the bottom. You have to experience a familiar, well-recorded timpani thwack through the SME to understand what I'm talking about.
Read more at https://www.stereophile.com/content/sme-model-302-turntable-page-3#dqhifcz5905ebBSW.99

 

[ddk]

David,
Do you use any special protractor with the 3012R or just the heavy paper one that comes with the arm?

Thanks,
JEff

Been using the same DB Systems protractor for nearly the past 20 years, easy peasy as Mike said.

david

 

[ddk]

that sucks. the Mint Lp is easy peasy.

Don't need it Mike, setting up the geometry with SME arms is very straight forward with zero ambiguity, Chris saw it first hand. We set up 3 arms and 5 cartridges in a few hours and would have been faster had I not leaned back and gotten thrown off with the bass reflection from the rear wall, his space is tight.

david

 

[ddk]

David,

Why not Cristal Champagne in place of Pepsi? Are you keeping the champagne for a digital analogy?

In a proper system the SME V has a master tape tonal balance - it was my feeling when I had it in the SME30. People valuating mostly its resonance free character will be happy to accept its bass performance, an area where for example a Graham 2.2 was more detailed.

I moved away from the SME V mostly because it does not allow for azimuth adjustment, and my cartridges needed some small adjustment for best performance. Surely SME advise was to ask for an exchange the cartridge ...

Pepsi! Let's not start with digital or we're getting into types of dishwater !

david

 

[microstrip]

the Mint Lp completely eliminates ambiguity. but when ambiguity is built into the arm/headshell design, then there you go.

I'm not suggesting these issues cannot be overcome, but it does make it more involved to do so.

Pivot tonearms are an intrinsic ambiguity. SME solves it imposing their own version of the ambiguity, but many people do not accept it and use alternative geometries with SME tonearms. But yes, setting up a SME tonearm can be very straightforward and fast.

 

[microstrip]

Pepsi! Let's not start with digital or we're getting into types of dishwater !

david

Dishwater? I was expecting much worse from you!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Don't need it Mike, setting up the geometry with SME arms is very straight forward with zero ambiguity, Chris saw it first hand. We set up 3 arms and 5 cartridges in a few hours and would have been faster had I not leaned back and gotten thrown off with the bass reflection from the rear wall, his space is tight.

david

I look forward to watching and learning. and.......listening.

i'm sure you will have your comfort zone tested in my tweaked lair also.

 

[Bruce B]

No, the SME arms with sliding bases don't work unless you provide a specific cartridge mounting hole to stylus tip distance to Yip for your particular cartridge. I have done this for two cartridge/arm combinations. Remember, each cartridge may be slightly off to, so the SME arms present a slight inconvenience for MINT, but it can be worked around. The MINT is a very nice protractor and seems to be very precise.

I've got one for my Coralstone. Works really well...