The new Aida reviewd by Michael Fremer

[PeterA]

It's also possible he got the new 12 inch arm explaining the larger soundstage and bass

If MF used the longer 12" SAT arm in for review while listening to these speakers and comparing this impression to his memory of his Wilsons as heard with the 9" SAT arm, I definitely think the longer arm could influence his opinion. When I directly compared my 9" to 12" SME arms, I did hear less distortion which enable me to hear more spatial cues and deeper into the soundstage. I can't remember if it also grew in width. The instruments stayed in place, but the space around them grew. The bass also got better, more refined, but not "bigger".

 

[bonzo75]

I was just making a fun reference to the 9 vs 12 debate. I don't think he did that. On another note er compared the Ikeda matte 407 12 inch with the Ikeda 9 inch 345, though later chrome version, using the madake. The latter was quite poor compared to the 407 though this proves nothing

 

[PeterA]

I was just making a fun reference to the 9 vs 12 debate. I don't think he did that. On another note er compared the Ikeda matte 407 12 inch with the Ikeda 9 inch 345, though later chrome version, using the madake. The latter was quite poor compared to the 407 though this proves nothing

It is a fun reference to that "length" debate, but could have also been a factor. I suspect that MF will hear the 12" SAT arm in his reference system with his reference speakers and at least form some of his opinion on that arm in that context.

 

[microstrip]

Does anyone know if MF removes his other speakers from the listening room before engaging in a review of a new pair of speakers? If not, how does he overcome the "sound" that the other drivers may contribute to the space or the mass of large Wilsons in the space? He must remove the speakers because of the room size, but what a hassle given the size and weight of the Wilsons.

Yes, the movie clear shows it. There would be no space for another pair of speakers in his cluttered room ...

The spikes of the XLF can be replaced by the castors in five minutes using the included Wilson Audio lift jack - removing them can be done easily.

 

[DaveyF]

Looking at the Aida design and others like it, i have to question one thing ( and BTW, as most know I am a BIG SF Fan). Here's my question, why on earth would one go to great lengths to design a cabinet like the Aida's...with all kinds of novel vibration controlling ideas...to then go and mount the x-over inside the very same cabinet...Duh! Same goes for other designs that have taken the idea of rigidity and cabinet control to great heights...and then do the exact same thing...double Duh!

 

[NorthStar]

Should high-end loudspeakers's designers build the crossovers in separate enclosures like very few do? The Aida II has four crossover points for the eight drivers total; 55, 150, 200, and 3000Hz. It's a complex speaker design as mentioned in the review.

The review in the first page includes a link to a video for their installation in Michael's room, quite something. And yes you can see that the Alexx's are gone, as it is also referred @ couple more places in the review.

When I've first read the review I was of course interested by Michael's comparison with Wilson and previous Sonus Faber speakers, but another manufacturer that crossed my mind very fast was Magico. They are not attractive as the Sonus Fabers with their simple boxy looking bodies. It's inside that counts, and what comes out outside...not the looks.
For looks the Aida II takes the grand prize. And from the reviews audio reviewers are impressed with their sound delivery too. The measurements, very secondary because of logistics, aren't too shabby either. We take what we need from what we know and understand and put ourselves in Michael's shoes, experience and own room, and what a room it is, what a man he is, what a reviewer and what an analog audio music expert, and digital too. He deserves everything that is inside his room, the domain of a man who has hardly enough space to walk around, to sit down, but mainly listening while engulfed by the magic of music.

He must be dreaming of the Aida II, @ the next time two young men are going to be back and reinstall them for a longer review time...for a new reference time.
I should go to analog planet's blog and ask him ... highest respect for a passionate motivator in the affairs of music sound reproduction in the next highest level.

The best is yet to come.

 

[DaveyF]

Bob, I think the answer to your question of whether high-end designers should build external x-overs is simple...Yes! While this may be a slightly more costly way to do things, IME, it results in a superior sounding speaker. Since the SF's in question retail for $130K...more than a S Class Mercedes and more than some homes in the US and Canada...then I think the answer is simple...again. The new Vivid Giya G1 Spirit's have this as a design feature, because the designer, Laurence Dickey understands these things..and wants the best product that he can design. I know the designers at SF do too...so why not go this extra step....Oh, I know why...because the money managers decided against it.

 

[still-one]

Bob, I think the answer to your question of whether high-end designers should build external x-overs is simple...Yes! While this may be a slightly more costly way to do things, IME, it results in a superior sounding speaker. Since the SF's in question retail for $130K...more than a S Class Mercedes and more than some homes in the US and Canada...then I think the answer is simple...again. The new Vivid Giya G1 Spirit's have this as a design feature, because the designer, Laurence Dickey understands these things..and wants the best product that he can design. I know the designers at SF do too...so why not go this extra step....Oh, I know why...because the money managers decided against it.

Or they decided no one could tell the difference.

 

[DaveyF]

Or they decided no one could tell the difference.

Let's hope that is not the case.

 

[NorthStar]

Bob, I think the answer to your question of whether high-end designers should build external x-overs is simple...Yes! While this may be a slightly more costly way to do things, IME, it results in a superior sounding speaker. Since the SF's in question retail for $130K...more than a S Class Mercedes and more than some homes in the US and Canada...then I think the answer is simple...again. The new Vivid Giya G1 Spirit's have this as a design feature, because the designer, Laurence Dickey understands these things..and wants the best product that he can design. I know the designers at SF do too...so why not go this extra step....Oh, I know why...because the money managers decided against it.

That was exactly where we both intended to go, with good common sense...separate active crossovers completely detached from the loudspeaker's enclosure. ...For best sound reproduction.
I believe very much so that audiophiles can hear the difference, for the better.

R.I.P. Andre (Mr. Acoustat) and Rodney (Mr. Vivid).

 

[microstrip]

Bob, I think the answer to your question of whether high-end designers should build external x-overs is simple...Yes! While this may be a slightly more costly way to do things, IME, it results in a superior sounding speaker. Since the SF's in question retail for $130K...more than a S Class Mercedes and more than some homes in the US and Canada...then I think the answer is simple...again. The new Vivid Giya G1 Spirit's have this as a design feature, because the designer, Laurence Dickey understands these things..and wants the best product that he can design. I know the designers at SF do too...so why not go this extra step....Oh, I know why...because the money managers decided against it.

Fortunately the money managers decided so ... A speaker that does not sell at all is worthless in this hobby.

All projects are carried to a price and for a target buyer. Separate box crossovers are in general poorly accepted. A local seller is almost trying to give away an old Avalon with a huge separate crossover, no one wants them, and I hate my B&W Silver Signatures umbilical and crossover external box.

There is a lot more to reduce vibration effects in crossovers than simply separating the crossover. Did you notice that both Sonus Faber and Magico use Mundorf components in the crossovers? They have a 20 dB difference in vibration susceptibility than common components used by other brands, probably allowing them to avoid the use of an external box, connectors and cables.

Can we know what is your listening experience with separate crossover speakers?

 

[microstrip]

That was exactly where we both intended to go, with good common sense...separate active crossovers completely detached from the loudspeaker's enclosure. ...For best sound reproduction.
I believe very much so that audiophiles can hear the difference, for the better.

Bob,

I think DaveyF is addressing separate passive crossovers.

 

[DaveyF]

Fortunately the money managers decided so ... A speaker that does not sell at all is worthless in this hobby.

All projects are carried to a price and for a target buyer. Separate box crossovers are in general poorly accepted. A local seller is almost trying to give away an old Avalon with a huge separate crossover, no one wants them, and I hate my B&W Silver Signatures umbilical and crossover external box.

There is a lot more to reduce vibration effects in crossovers than simply separating the crossover. Did you notice that both Sonus Faber and Magico use Mundorf components in the crossovers? They have a 20 dB difference in vibration susceptibility than common components used by other brands, probably allowing them to avoid the use of an external box, connectors and cables.

Can we know what is your listening experience with separate crossover speakers?

What kind of a question is that? Plus, where on earth do you get the idea that separate box crossovers are in general poorly accepted? Because a couple of folks are having a hard time trying to sell an old Avalon!
Oh, I forgot, you know more than Lawrence Dickie...and would have told him to ditch this idea with his new Spirits.

 

[microstrip]

What kind of a question is that? Plus, where on earth do you get the idea that separate box crossovers are in general poorly accepted? Because a couple of folks are having a hard time trying to sell an old Avalon!
Oh, I forgot, you know more than Lawrence Dickie...and would have told me to ditch this idea with his new Spirits.

My opinion, in an hobby that is dominated by personal preference and our own experience. If your experience is different from mine I will be happy to learn about it.

I could add that very long ago, moving the crossovers out of the box was a fashion in the DIY community - I did it to several speakers, mainly old KEF's with lousy crossovers.

 

[DaveyF]

My opinion, in an hobby that is dominated by personal preference and our own experience. If your experience is different from mine I will be happy to learn about it.

I could add that very long ago, moving the crossovers out of the box was a fashion in the DIY community - I did it to several speakers, mainly old KEF's with lousy crossovers.

Your prior post wasn't stated that way...it said” Separtate box crossovers are generally poorly accepted” an absolute. Now you say this is your opinion.
FYI, I have owned several speakers with external x-overs, from Maggie’s to Hales. Every one of them was considered at the time as the top of their range...and the designers knew that mounting the x-overs in a separate box was beneficial. IMO, the reasons are pretty obvious. These new SF speakers retail for $130k, which while it might be peanuts to you, is a considerable amount for most people. Since the company is attempting to offer a top of the line speaker...and as such is pricing it accordingly, I believe that placing the x-overs in the cabinet, where they will be subject to considerable vibration is a kludge, at best. Makes no difference that they are using Mundorfs or whatever, why subject the whole affair to considerable vibration stress, when there is another better option available.
I guess YMMV.

 

[microstrip]

Your prior post wasn't stated that way...it said” Separtate box crossovers are generally poorly accepted” an absolute. Now you say this is your opinion.
FYI, I have owned several speakers with external x-overs, from Maggie’s to Hales. Every one of them was considered at the time as the top of their range...and the designers knew that mounting the x-overs in a separate box was beneficial. IMO, the reasons are pretty obvious. These new SF speakers retail for $130k, which while it might be peanuts to you, is a considerable amount for most people. Since the company is attempting to offer a top of the line speaker...and as such is pricing it accordingly, I believe that placing the x-overs in the cabinet, where they will be subject to considerable vibration is a kludge, at best. Makes no difference that they are using Mundorfs or whatever, why subject the whole affair to considerable vibration stress, when there is another better option available.
I guess YMMV.

Sorry, I can not include IMHO in every statement.

And yes, you are correct, my MG3's and Tymapani IV had separate crossovers. Nasty boxes, the friend who got the MG3's built a small shelve on the back of the speaker to support the crossover. Should we consider that all other more recent Magnepan designs without external crossovers were a unfortunate back step?

 

[adyc]

Bob, I think the answer to your question of whether high-end designers should build external x-overs is simple...Yes! While this may be a slightly more costly way to do things, IME, it results in a superior sounding speaker. Since the SF's in question retail for $130K...more than a S Class Mercedes and more than some homes in the US and Canada...then I think the answer is simple...again. The new Vivid Giya G1 Spirit's have this as a design feature, because the designer, Laurence Dickey understands these things..and wants the best product that he can design. I know the designers at SF do too...so why not go this extra step....Oh, I know why...because the money managers decided against it.

My Vivid dealer told me that one can get external crossover option for whole S2 series including G4, not just G1S. Also G1S can have internal crossover for cheaper price. The dealer also told me that Dickie believes that internal and external crossover sound the same.

 

[LL21]

My Vivid dealer told me that one can get external crossover option for whole S2 series including G4, not just G1S. Also G1S can have internal crossover for cheaper price. The dealer also told me that Dickie believes that internal and external crossover sound the same.

Interesting...does Dickie charge more for the external crossover option...because it takes more time/design/cost to produce?

 

[TitaniumTroy]

Ron, back in the day KEF had something called a "Force canceling rod" connecting to opposing woofers which were enclosed inside the speaker. Here is one version, a old school stereo place told me they were a real PITA to repair. http://www.kef.com/uploads/files/en/museum_pdf/90s/Reference_Series_Models_One_to_Four_r.pdf

This seems somewhat different in application but you get the idea. One version 104/2 even had an external EQ the Kube which extended bass down to 20Hz.

By the way your new pic is pretty cool, looks much more real. The other one looked too perfect to me anyway.

 

[adyc]

Interesting...does Dickie charge more for the external crossover option...because it takes more time/design/cost to produce?

Yes. Around $2k to $3k more. As mentioned in many reviews, one advantage of external crossover allows one to bypass the passive crossover to go active.