Zu loudspeakers

[213Cobra]

>> I notice that this 213cobra has now given up his SETs for the new Druid 6 claiming that SET can't handle bass below 35hz or so. All this tells me is that HIS Audio SETs, which don't have particularly beefy output iron, were not adequate but that some of the newer more massive designs would be just fine with those speakers. In fact, with a few SETs I know I would never, ever consider PP tube amp bass to be superior (its not and is often mushier) and even SS bass is worse (more one note and overdamped).

I have not heard a single PP tube amp that can compete with a good SET in terms of wholistic musical response and even digging into details. I would only consider an OTL as a viable alternative and even then the tonal balance is too "cold" in many cases. Now, an Aries Cerat SET OTL would be something to hear... ...I haven't had the pleasure yet. <<

It's not a matter of the SET amp "can't handle bass below..." The amp "handles" the bass same as it ever did. It's the speaker that is revealing the bass quality limitations of SET which Definition doesn't fall victim to because in that speaker the solid state amp is actually performing the woofer control. Look, no one likes SET more than me. I've been using SET continually for over 20 years. And I did not find the Druid 6 / SET mismatch confined to Audion. Yes, Audion doesn't have massive output iron, but that's one reason it emphases agility and transparency. Most heavy-iron SET implementations also sound *relatively* ponderous compared to an Audion Golden Dream or Black Shadow. If you find fat bottom bass euphonic and you buy Druid 6, knock yourself out! It's no harm to anyone. But I am finding better balance in Single Ended Pentode, Single Ended Tetrode, and Push-Pull Triode thus far. It's an ongoing investigation. The next entrant is Class A push-pull tubes, 25w.

Every topology has its limitations or faults. SET is intrinsically holistic when done well, but there's greater objectivity to be had in equally-well-executed push-pull. The question is how much of that you can get without losing too much of SET integrity and tone. By going outside the cliche push-pull mainstream circa 2019, you can actually walk right on that line.

Phil

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . Every topology has its limitations or faults. SET is intrinsically holistic when done well, but there's greater objectivity to be had in equally-well-executed push-pull. The question is how much of that you can get without losing too much of SET integrity and tone. . . .

+1

 

[christoph]

I've only spent about an hour with it on so far...

Very, very, promising, though, for solid state.

Please elaborate.
Maybe in an Apogee thread?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Phil, I would fully understand yr comments that PP, and triodes like Nats, 211s, possibly sounding ponderous compared to Audion. Remember, I ran Black Shadows for two years before moving to my current Nats, so I have good first hand reference data points.

My experience/conclusion is predicated on the fact that I likely have/had a way more challenging room than you, from enormous size to problematic floor.

So in a more normal manageable room, I likely would have stuck with the lower power moderately more transparent Audions, esp w tonal attributes of Elrog 845s. But the Nats in my case were the better balance in tonally saturating my extra large volumes more effortlessly.

I also have listened to a lot more live unamplified, and that carved from stone solidity in lower mids is more identifiable in my Nats than my old Audions. That could be identified as down tilted in some systems, but not mine. FWIW, I had thought about the possibility of these Nats in my systems over the two years I ran the Black Shadows, but remained a little unsure of their unmistakeably strong character in lower mids/upper bass. But once they were installed on demo in my system at home, they quickly became undeniable.

 

[morricab]

>> I find your characterizations of why horns aren't more popular in America based more on a bunch of tropes than real information. <<

Hmm. And I find your defense of horns propagandic. Yes, I've listened to 604s in proper closures. And most of the other classic domestic and cinema horns. As well as modern horns ala Avantegarde Acoustics. Yes, in the grand scheme of things they can "sound good." Would I take any of them over Zu today? No, they aren't as integrating and most use crossovers. That's a first-order loudspeaker sin for me.

The magazines didn't explicitly kill the horn in America. But they trumpeted an alternative. With stereo requiring two speakers, the acoustic suspension speaker killed the horn by vastly expanding the constituency for domestic hifi in the late '50s through the late '70s by making audio space requirements practical and mitigating the spousal objective factors. And then horn loading and other ported techniques emulated the suspension design's form factor. But most of those compact "horns" weren't very convincing. At any time in the US, the percentage of consumers who are oriented to and receptive of high end audio is miniscule, and the SET subset of that is a more diminutive still. Horn loudspeakers will never be a significant trend in hifi here because the enabling factors (small, musical amps, spousal acceptance, willing space allocation to hifi, etc.), have scant presence, and the inhibiting factors (finicky placement, solid state / substantial power market, spousal objection, trend to large houses reversing) are pervasive.

A speaker from Zu's upper line has more coherence, most of the efficiency and dynamic life, better dynamic unity and is much more accommodating wrt placement and more flexible wrt compatible amplification. Notwithstanding the crossovers dependency in most horns, horn speaker systems can sound admirable. It just doesn't work out that way in the domestic interiors most people have to work with.

Are Voxativ's Arpeggio Due and Avantgarde Acoustic's Duo XD the same because they both use horn principles? Not exactly. The one that can achieve coherence in nearly any room is the Voxativ, but it's not the one that shouts horn.

Phil

Look, I get your whole "crossover is a sin" argument. As I said, I have a quite good sounding pair of single driver speakers myself and was a dedicated full-range, single driver electrostat owner for well over a decade. I still love the way they sound (a good pair of Acoustats driven by a top notch SET is wonderful sounding); however, I have found that you can find horns that are sufficiently well integrated that the seams are not obvious and the colorations are negligible and what you get in return is a more life-like sound. I haven't heard the latest Zus but I heard earlier iterations and IMO they were behind even some other single driver speakers out there. Regardless, there are clearly flaws that you have decided you can live with better than your percevied flaws in 2-way plus speakers...I can respect that but that doesn't make it universal. I also realize that horns are not univerally loved but a lot of it was a marketing perception thus the resurgence of interest in them (same with SET... it was bad mouthed and basically put out to pasture for 50-60 years before making a comeback).

If horns didn't bring something special to the party, do you really think old JBLs, Altecs and Tannoys would be worth so much on the used market?

The irony of what you are saying is that the US audiophile is the guy, on average, with the MOST space for horns. Do you think WAF is any different in Europe compared to the US? I can tell you with my own struggles it is not.

I have "compact" horns. They are a two-way design with a 10 inch mid/bass in a back loaded, floor-firing, horn and a 1 inch compression driver mounted in a solid hardwood 10 inch horn (either spherical or Tractrix...I am not quite sure). They are 1.25 meters tall quite deep and 98db/watt. Bass is flat to around 45Hz but usable into the mid-30s. Most who have heard them have been floored by their capabilities.

I have heard the Arpeggio Due and the Duo XD . With a good SET, I would take the XD. I heard the XD with AG's own SS integrated and hated it. I heard the same speaker with AudioPAX amps (these were not SET I think but still quite nice) and it was superb. VERY sensitive to the electronics...as you would expect with such a speaker. The Voxativ speakers all sound a bit thin and reedy unless they are supported by the Voxativ dipole subs. A really good horn I heard recently was the RD Acoustics (from Czech republic) with a Fostex driver. The same horn with a Voxativ lacked substance although the highs were more refined.

My own single driver speakers use a modified FE206E from Fostex but I find the highs not particularly realistic with this speaker so I will add a 1 inch compression driver to cover above about 2-3Khz (to be determined). I may also decide to use it more like Zu does as an upper most octaves filler.

To date, the ONLY full-range single driver I have heard that is truly full range and is even over that range is an electrostatic panel. My Acoustats had 2 or 4 panels per channel but were all working over the same full range. I also had STAX ELS F-81s that were more transparent but less dynamic and AudioStatic RS100, which were less even sounding but quite alive. Even Zu acknowledges that their driver needs help in the uppermost octaves (why a large format compression driver to cover such high frequencies do not really understand but if it works...)

 

[morricab]

>> I notice that this 213cobra has now given up his SETs for the new Druid 6 claiming that SET can't handle bass below 35hz or so. All this tells me is that HIS Audio SETs, which don't have particularly beefy output iron, were not adequate but that some of the newer more massive designs would be just fine with those speakers. In fact, with a few SETs I know I would never, ever consider PP tube amp bass to be superior (its not and is often mushier) and even SS bass is worse (more one note and overdamped).

I have not heard a single PP tube amp that can compete with a good SET in terms of wholistic musical response and even digging into details. I would only consider an OTL as a viable alternative and even then the tonal balance is too "cold" in many cases. Now, an Aries Cerat SET OTL would be something to hear... ...I haven't had the pleasure yet. <<

It's not a matter of the SET amp "can't handle bass below..." The amp "handles" the bass same as it ever did. It's the speaker that is revealing the bass quality limitations of SET which Definition doesn't fall victim to because in that speaker the solid state amp is actually performing the woofer control. Look, no one likes SET more than me. I've been using SET continually for over 20 years. And I did not find the Druid 6 / SET mismatch confined to Audion. Yes, Audion doesn't have massive output iron, but that's one reason it emphases agility and transparency. Most heavy-iron SET implementations also sound *relatively* ponderous compared to an Audion Golden Dream or Black Shadow. If you find fat bottom bass euphonic and you buy Druid 6, knock yourself out! It's no harm to anyone. But I am finding better balance in Single Ended Pentode, Single Ended Tetrode, and Push-Pull Triode thus far. It's an ongoing investigation. The next entrant is Class A push-pull tubes, 25w.

Every topology has its limitations or faults. SET is intrinsically holistic when done well, but there's greater objectivity to be had in equally-well-executed push-pull. The question is how much of that you can get without losing too much of SET integrity and tone. By going outside the cliche push-pull mainstream circa 2019, you can actually walk right on that line.

Phil

Yes, it is about how it handles the bass. A small output transformer will saturate and result in the lack of control you are describing now that the Zu Druid 6 is digging deeper. It was less obvious when the bass was not going down so low is all. A large output iron that is not under saturation will maintain very good control of the woofer all the way down.

There is nothing inherent in a large transformer that it has to sound "ponderous" and this is probably more to do with insufficient winding to compensate and provide a good high frequency extension, which is what often suffers as the size of the iron increases. I can tell you that adequate iron will prevent the Druid from having "fat bottomed" bass. I also have a single ended pentode amp at home (MasterSound Dueundici, which is 11 watt SEP using an EL34) that sounds good but in no way better than either of my SETs (JJ322 and Aries Cerat Genus). It is light and fast but lacks harmonic rightness in comparison and bass punch. Still, it is fun to play with. I have also had PP triode (VAC 30/30 (300B) and PureSound A30 (triode wired tetrode)), OTL (Silvaweld and Transcendent sound), SE(Transistor) hybrid (NAT Symbiosis SE), SET hybrids (KR Audio) and other SETs (Ayon Crossfire, Wall Audio Opus M50, Cary CAD 572SE, Ayon Vulcan Evo (for review)). Only the Silvaweld OTLs gave a serious run against the SETs (KR, Ayon and Aries Cerat in particular were good) but they lacked the wholistic rightness.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, we all hear what we hear. I'm a massive fan of AG Duos Omegas, yet I hear from many that they only perceive horn honk, shoutiness, and chasm of seam from mids horn to woofers. I don't hear any of this other than the occasional evidence of change of character in upper bass. And it's only highlighted after hearing a more purist horn like the Cessaro Liszts.

Go to the Animas, the same person who hates the Duos loves these, yet all I can hear is massive discontinuity from mids to treble, a white hot treble, and bass that isn't anything I'd consider realistic.

Obv there are other examples. So if Phil hears Duos poorly (I don't) and Animas poorly (I do) in whatever examples he has done personally, yet hears Zus the way I do, which is to say hugely continuous, coherent, densely musical, it will put to shame more so-called sophisticated horns, ribbons or multi driver towers.

 

[bonzo75]

I love your conclusion. It is as coherent as a badly made multi driver horn

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, one person's crock of $hit is another person's drug of choice. Glad to see you're still sniffing about here.

 

[bonzo75]

I am but talking about choice but how you conclude B from A. Good to know your ears are as keen as the space between them

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh Ked, my conclusion isn't B, but Z. Z for Zu. You know, the subject of this thread.

 

[Zero000]

Please elaborate.
Maybe in an Apogee thread?

Ah - Luxman M03 owner. Never noticed that.

Let me spend a few weeks with it. Then I may do so.

 

[Zero000]

If you are on an SS amp journey, try an amp called Symphonic Line Kraft. It may be the "tubiest" SS amp ever made. I know someone who had the $60K top of the line Luxman monoblocks in his house and preferred the Symphonic Line - by a HUGE MARGIN. Those amps drive anything, including Apogee and MBL. They sound like SETs with MBL and have tremendous bass wallop to boot.

There is ALWAYS a better amp. Whatever you have.

I strongly suspect the Line Kraft cost way more than I paid for the Lux.

 

[Rob181]

I am but talking about choice but how you conclude B from A. Good to know your ears are as keen as the space between them

Why do you troll through a Zu thread - I for one am fascinated to learn more about SETS & modded Definitions. I am a huge fan of what Dueland caps bring to the table & as an example here is a the crossover (shock horror) for my 2 way "made in the Land Downunder" speakers.

 

[bonzo75]

Why do you troll through a Zu thread - I for one am fascinated to learn more about SETS & modded Definitions. I am a huge fan of what Dueland caps bring to the table & as an example here is a the crossover (shock horror) for my 2 way "made in the Land Downunder" speakers.

Why does Marc troll randomly on horns and ribbons in a Zu thread? Also the way he drew his conclusion

 

[bonzo75]

There is ALWAYS a better amp. Whatever you have.

I strongly suspect the Line Kraft cost way more than I paid for the Lux.

The used price of the Kraft is pretty good and there also is a symphonic line RG7 that has less power than the Kraft but same cost as the lux. That is supposed to be quite good, I was recommended by audio arts whose expensive set of electronics is FM, he is not a dealer for symphonic line but was a big apogee user before. There is a guy with scintilla in the US using the Kraft too

 

[Zero000]

The used price of the Kraft is pretty good and there also is a symphonic line RG7 that has less power than the Kraft but same cost as the lux. That is supposed to be quite good, I was recommended by audio arts whose expensive set of electronics is FM, he is not a dealer for symphonic line but was a big apogee user before. There is a guy with scintilla in the US using the Kraft too

Just got an amp and already we're onto the next one

 

[spiritofmusic]

Ked, please, keep digging. You don't fool anyone w your attitude except yself.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Rob, I'll get back to you soon.

 

[morricab]

Brad, we all hear what we hear. I'm a massive fan of AG Duos Omegas, yet I hear from many that they only perceive horn honk, shoutiness, and chasm of seam from mids horn to woofers. I don't hear any of this other than the occasional evidence of change of character in upper bass. And it's only highlighted after hearing a more purist horn like the Cessaro Liszts.

Go to the Animas, the same person who hates the Duos loves these, yet all I can hear is massive discontinuity from mids to treble, a white hot treble, and bass that isn't anything I'd consider realistic.

Obv there are other examples. So if Phil hears Duos poorly (I don't) and Animas poorly (I do) in whatever examples he has done personally, yet hears Zus the way I do, which is to say hugely continuous, coherent, densely musical, it will put to shame more so-called sophisticated horns, ribbons or multi driver towers.

Your assumption is that all people hear equally well (both literally and in their ability to interpret what they "hear"). I know from experience this is far from true.

I am well aware of horn flaws, having my first pair in my early 20s (A banged up pair of Klipsch La Scallas). I am also well aware of the flaws of the high sensitivity single driver. Coherent or not, the single driver speakers suffer when the music starts to get really complex and/or loud. The only speakers I have heard that can be single driver, fullrange, and stay relatively uncongested when it gets complicated are big full-range electrostats (not ones with separate elements but single panel or multiple panels working fullrange in parallel). Now, if you load one in a proper horn, like Pnoe, then that relieves some issues. Nonetheless, the single drivers are all colored to some degree compared to a conventional low/mid sensitivity speaker. That is not what they are about anyway.

As you get to multi-way speakers it is hard to make it all sing with one voice. A two way or a very well done three-way can still sound completely coherent though. It is not easy nor always achieved. Technically, Zu is an augmented widebander. Not a bad idea...I will do something similar to mine (not Zus, HDTs).

However, I just recently heard a coaxial based speaker call Live Act Audio. They use an 8 inch coax from Radian (yes the same brand as your tweeter in the new Zus) with convention woofers...VERY coherent and seemingly more accurate than most of what i have heard. Dynamikks uss the same approach to good effect as well. Audiophile Bills crazy horns with 115 db are also a coax for a compression driver...I am sure those sound very coherent as well. Just because Phil (213cobra) says everything else is lacking coherence doesn't make it so. He is right than most normal speakers are not terribly coherent and they lack a lot of attributes that make them interesting to listen to.