Zu loudspeakers

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, agreed.

 

[microstrip]

Your assumption is that all people hear equally well (both literally and in their ability to interpret what they "hear"). I know from experience this is far from true.

I am well aware of horn flaws, having my first pair in my early 20s (A banged up pair of Klipsch La Scallas). I am also well aware of the flaws of the high sensitivity single driver. Coherent or not, the single driver speakers suffer when the music starts to get really complex and/or loud. The only speakers I have heard that can be single driver, fullrange, and stay relatively uncongested when it gets complicated are big full-range electrostats (not ones with separate elements but single panel or multiple panels working fullrange in parallel). Now, if you load one in a proper horn, like Pnoe, then that relieves some issues. Nonetheless, the single drivers are all colored to some degree compared to a conventional low/mid sensitivity speaker. That is not what they are about anyway.

As you get to multi-way speakers it is hard to make it all sing with one voice. A two way or a very well done three-way can still sound completely coherent though. It is not easy nor always achieved. Technically, Zu is an augmented widebander. Not a bad idea...I will do something similar to mine (not Zus, HDTs).

However, I just recently heard a coaxial based speaker call Live Act Audio. They use an 8 inch coax from Radian (yes the same brand as your tweeter in the new Zus) with convention woofers...VERY coherent and seemingly more accurate than most of what i have heard. Dynamikks uss the same approach to good effect as well. Audiophile Bills crazy horns with 115 db are also a coax for a compression driver...I am sure those sound very coherent as well. Just because Phil (213cobra) says everything else is lacking coherence doesn't make it so. He is right than most normal speakers are not terribly coherent and they lack a lot of attributes that make them interesting to listen to.

IMHO your reasoning was perfect until the tenth word. I would subscribe your first sentence if the word well is taken from it. It suggests that people that do not hear as you hear less well. Assuming that being disturbed by a pseudo speaker discontinuity is better hearing is a false argument.

People train to their preference - all you refer are people's specif susceptibility to specific aspects of speaker performance. No one is absolutely right or wrong in this hobby - at best being right means you share the preference of a clear majority - something that does not seem to be true for the horn speakers being addressed, unless we limit to the sample of the audiophile population to horn lovers ...

In this hobby many people want to train others to become "better listeners" or "critical listeners". Most of the time they just drive people closer to their own preferences - this also can happen with food, wine or garnments ... At a time I was interested by Sean Olive training method - curiously reading comments from people who were trained drove me away from them as fast as I could ...

So, we agree on "... all people hear equally (both literally and in their ability to interpret what they "hear"). I know from experience this is far from true. "

 

[spiritofmusic]

Why do you troll through a Zu thread - I for one am fascinated to learn more about SETS & modded Definitions. I am a huge fan of what Dueland caps bring to the table & as an example here is a the crossover (shock horror) for my 2 way "made in the Land Downunder" speakers.

Rob, the mods to Definitions involve a single Duelunds cap and resistor each to high- and low-pass filters, and Lundahl transformers to Hypex sub amps.

The change is not subtle, more smoothness esp into the treble, reducing some grain, and more seamless transition to subs, allowing subs settings to come in lower, thus less smear in mids.

Anything else you'd like to know about Definitions, or these mods?
Too bad about yr accident!

 

[caesar]

Just got an amp and already we're onto the next one

That's the fun of the hobby!

 

[caesar]

Your assumption is that all people hear equally well (both literally and in their ability to interpret what they "hear"). I know from experience this is far from true.

I am well aware of horn flaws, having my first pair in my early 20s (A banged up pair of Klipsch La Scallas). I am also well aware of the flaws of the high sensitivity single driver. Coherent or not, the single driver speakers suffer when the music starts to get really complex and/or loud. The only speakers I have heard that can be single driver, fullrange, and stay relatively uncongested when it gets complicated are big full-range electrostats (not ones with separate elements but single panel or multiple panels working fullrange in parallel). Now, if you load one in a proper horn, like Pnoe, then that relieves some issues. Nonetheless, the single drivers are all colored to some degree compared to a conventional low/mid sensitivity speaker. That is not what they are about anyway.

As you get to multi-way speakers it is hard to make it all sing with one voice. A two way or a very well done three-way can still sound completely coherent though. It is not easy nor always achieved. Technically, Zu is an augmented widebander. Not a bad idea...I will do something similar to mine (not Zus, HDTs).

However, I just recently heard a coaxial based speaker call Live Act Audio. They use an 8 inch coax from Radian (yes the same brand as your tweeter in the new Zus) with convention woofers...VERY coherent and seemingly more accurate than most of what i have heard. Dynamikks uss the same approach to good effect as well. Audiophile Bills crazy horns with 115 db are also a coax for a compression driver...I am sure those sound very coherent as well. Just because Phil (213cobra) says everything else is lacking coherence doesn't make it so. He is right than most normal speakers are not terribly coherent and they lack a lot of attributes that make them interesting to listen to.

Nice post. I know that many of us are miles apart, physically, but I wish we would at times listen together so we are able to calibrate our tastes and vocabulary, especially on your comments regarding integration...

I'm very familiar with Martin Logan CLX and Soundlab stats. Although they are single driver speakers, they lack Zu's ability to present dynamic transients, shadings, and decay. They just don't have that micro dynamic ebb and flow of music. (If anyone knows why that is please let me know!!!)

YG speakers are supposed to have the best integration of all of the box speakers, but they don't have it either...

Other single driver speakers that I have heard like the Polish Cubes and the German Voxativs are excellent in their transparency and tone, but can't rock! ((If anyone knows why Zus rock better , please let me know!!!)

 

[spiritofmusic]

Well, Nat Magmas could be a crazy thrill ride on the Zus, at 170W/ch and endless reserves of current.

It would be a toss up btwn these and Mayer 845s or 211s if I traded up to Zu Experiences when they're released.

Maybe I'll try the Symphonic Line Kraft. Justin, if you're reading this, a Kraft stereo amp is currently for sale from Choice HiFi.

 

[caesar]

>> I notice that this 213cobra has now given up his SETs for the new Druid 6 claiming that SET can't handle bass below 35hz or so. All this tells me is that HIS Audio SETs, which don't have particularly beefy output iron, were not adequate but that some of the newer more massive designs would be just fine with those speakers. In fact, with a few SETs I know I would never, ever consider PP tube amp bass to be superior (its not and is often mushier) and even SS bass is worse (more one note and overdamped).

I have not heard a single PP tube amp that can compete with a good SET in terms of wholistic musical response and even digging into details. I would only consider an OTL as a viable alternative and even then the tonal balance is too "cold" in many cases. Now, an Aries Cerat SET OTL would be something to hear... ...I haven't had the pleasure yet. <<

It's not a matter of the SET amp "can't handle bass below..." The amp "handles" the bass same as it ever did. It's the speaker that is revealing the bass quality limitations of SET which Definition doesn't fall victim to because in that speaker the solid state amp is actually performing the woofer control. Look, no one likes SET more than me. I've been using SET continually for over 20 years. And I did not find the Druid 6 / SET mismatch confined to Audion. Yes, Audion doesn't have massive output iron, but that's one reason it emphases agility and transparency. Most heavy-iron SET implementations also sound *relatively* ponderous compared to an Audion Golden Dream or Black Shadow. If you find fat bottom bass euphonic and you buy Druid 6, knock yourself out! It's no harm to anyone. But I am finding better balance in Single Ended Pentode, Single Ended Tetrode, and Push-Pull Triode thus far. It's an ongoing investigation. The next entrant is Class A push-pull tubes, 25w.

Every topology has its limitations or faults. SET is intrinsically holistic when done well, but there's greater objectivity to be had in equally-well-executed push-pull. The question is how much of that you can get without losing too much of SET integrity and tone. By going outside the cliche push-pull mainstream circa 2019, you can actually walk right on that line.

Phil

Hi Cobra,
Nice post! Since, unfortunately we can't listen together and need to properly calibrate our vocabulary, what do you mean by "greater objectivity"? To me, objectivity is about the lean, clean sound of Spectral, Magico, Sanders amps, uber analytical Berkeley Reference DAC, and much of pro gear. I would rather hang myself than listen to that. And those sterile mother fuyers would rather kill themselves than listen to tubes and horn-type gear.

 

[microstrip]

(...) I'm very familiar with Martin Logan CLX and Soundlab stats. Although they are single driver speakers, they lack Zu's ability to present dynamic transients, shadings, and decay. They just don't have that micro dynamic ebb and flow of music. (If anyone knows why that is please let me know!!!) (...)

Although I have no experience with Zu's I will add that, within their dynamic limitations, Quad ESL63 have better micro detail, dynamic transients, shadings and decay than the Martin Logan CLX or the Soundlab's.

 

[caesar]

Although I have no experience with Zu's I will add that, within their dynamic limitations, Quad ESL63 have better micro detail, dynamic transients, shadings and decay than the Martin Logan CLX or the Soundlab's.

Hi Microstrip,
Do you have a rationale / reasonable explanation for that?
Thanks

 

[KeithR]

People train to their preference - all you refer are people's specif susceptibility to specific aspects of speaker performance. No one is absolutely right or wrong in this hobby - at best being right means you share the preference of a clear majority - something that does not seem to be true for the horn speakers being addressed, unless we limit to the sample of the audiophile population to horn lovers ...

Right on. I think the frustrating thing at times with Brad's posts is he feels everything except SET/horns is wrong and that the rest of our ears are screwed up if we don't like them. And the irony is he's never heard a properly setup Zu system in a home. I just can't fathom why he (and others) can't understand that folks actually prefer SS over tube, or PP over SET, or what not - and its not due to lack of experience.

Audio isn't black or white - and shouldn't be. My thing is let people try on their own and see what they like- not dictate what they "should" like. Its off-putting, not unlike the Harman/measurement crowd discussions from Amir's days on the forum.

as far as Phil's Zu comments vs horns - as long as I've known Phil his #1 priority is coherency. Clearly any horn/cone system isn't going to make him happy - and there is nothing wrong with that. Others have different priorities (me included). He is correct that WAF on horns is poor and the reason they aren't popular in the US - same with panels. Most of the vintage Altecs, JBLs, etc. are going to Asia - not the US. To say there is a renaissance here is misleading. On the modern front, I've sent messages to JBL several times and *can't even get a demo* in SoCal. There isn't a single pair of Cessaros on the west coast either. The US is very much a cone-centric market and Wilson probably outsells the entire European horn market just in the US alone.

 

[microstrip]

Hi Microstrip,
Do you have a rationale / reasonable explanation for that?
Thanks

Well, the measurements of the frequency response and distortion of the ESL63 are what we call textbook values, Soundlabs and Martin Logan measure miserably... Besides the ESL63 is a true point like dipole speaker - I think it is unique in this aspect in this class. So, perhaps rationale but not so sure if reasonable ...

 

[morricab]

Nice post. I know that many of us are miles apart, physically, but I wish we would at times listen together so we are able to calibrate our tastes and vocabulary, especially on your comments regarding integration...

I'm very familiar with Martin Logan CLX and Soundlab stats. Although they are single driver speakers, they lack Zu's ability to present dynamic transients, shadings, and decay. They just don't have that micro dynamic ebb and flow of music. (If anyone knows why that is please let me know!!!)

YG speakers are supposed to have the best integration of all of the box speakers, but they don't have it either...

Other single driver speakers that I have heard like the Polish Cubes and the German Voxativs are excellent in their transparency and tone, but can't rock! ((If anyone knows why Zus rock better , please let me know!!!)

The CLX is more than one panel if I am not mistaken. Don't they have a curved and a flat panel? For the fully curved panels from ML I think this was a mistaken design. The curvature restricts motion and probably increases distortion. Soundlabs is a bit better by breaking their curved idea into flat cells of different dimensions but I have heard they are really a challenge to drive.

I can tell you that the STAX ELS-F81s did microdynamics better than anything i have heard save for the very top top top of horn speakers (think Living Voice and Aries Cerat and a few others) but couldn't do macrodynamics. My Audiostatics were still better than most other speakers I have heard (including a ton of single drivers) but were worse than STAX on micro and still limited on Macro. The Acoustats were not quite as subtle but they still did really well at low/medium listening levels...not really anything missing to be honest. BUT they did macro dynamics quite well...not sure if it is Zu good (the Zus I heard simply lacked too much transparency for me to take them seriously...circa 2009) dynamics...probably not but they were much stronger than Zus I heard at that time in pretty much everything else.

Let's not talk about YG...not playing the same game, IMO.

I am guessing that the Zu widebander is doing better with "rocking out" because of it's pro driver origins and it is probably not as light and "delicate" as these other widebanders, being more designed for playing loud continuously. This is only a guess though. I heard the Cubes last year but didn't remark them to be as special as they seem to have become and I have yet to hear a truly convincing Voxativ demo without the use of an active sub. In fact in 2016 (I think) at Munich a Czech company, RD Acoustics, had their horns with a choice of Voxativ or much cheaper Fostex drivers and the Fostex to us sounded much better balanced (i.e. it had some bass) even though the Voxativ was arguably finer in the upper reaches. Backloaded horn is a way to get some punch from a full ranger but usually not much bass below 50Hz.

My own full range speakers, the Decware HDTs, sound great at low to middle high volume. They start get too shouty though when playing at levels my Odeon horns love. That makes them a great late night speaker when you want to hear lots of detail without playing loud. That being said, I am either turning them into two-ways or augmented widebanders (whichever sounds better after experimentation). I will add a 1inch compression driver (Beyma CP350ti) with minidsp setup (two dacs and two amps...only digital out from the minidsp) or simply a passive highpass for the compression driver (above say 8Khz).

Once I went over to stats I was a coherence worshipper and it took VERY coherent horns to steer me away for good (well...who knows if for good ). The only conventional speakers I have heard with very good coherence are 1st order designs like Thiel and Vandersteen or an "augmented" wideband design from Reference 3a. There the 8 inch mid/bass has no crossover and the tweeter a simple 1st order rolloff...great sounding conventional speaker.

Finally, I like very much the idea from Horning Hybrid speakers: stripping off the whizzer cone from a Lowther and using it as a wide band mid/bass (but not full range anymore), adding a tweeter and bass drivers (in a sophisticated double Tapered Quarter wave tube). I heard the Agathon Ultimates back 2004 and thought they were awesome...would love to hear the Eufrodite Ellipse someday...

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, you're a thoughtful guy, but Zus circa 2009 are the Ice Age. You need to hear them circa 2019, starting w Druids 6. A totally different animal.

 

[morricab]

Right on. I think the frustrating thing at times with Brad's posts is he feels everything except SET/horns is wrong and that the rest of our ears are screwed up if we don't like them. And the irony is he's never heard a properly setup Zu system in a home. I just can't fathom why he (and others) can't understand that folks actually prefer SS over tube, or PP over SET, or what not - and its not due to lack of experience.

Audio isn't black or white - and shouldn't be. My thing is let people try on their own and see what they like- not dictate what they "should" like. Its off-putting, not unlike the Harman/measurement crowd discussions from Amir's days on the forum.

as far as Phil's Zu comments vs horns - as long as I've known Phil his #1 priority is coherency. Clearly any horn/cone system isn't going to make him happy - and there is nothing wrong with that. Others have different priorities (me included). He is correct that WAF on horns is poor and the reason they aren't popular in the US - same with panels. Most of the vintage Altecs, JBLs, etc. are going to Asia - not the US. To say there is a renaissance here is misleading. On the modern front, I've sent messages to JBL several times and *can't even get a demo* in SoCal. There isn't a single pair of Cessaros on the west coast either. The US is very much a cone-centric market and Wilson probably outsells the entire European horn market just in the US alone.

Well, I have heard a properly tuned Zu at a home...just not my home. It was at a well known reviewer's home no less and I was naturally curious as he used them as his "high sensitivity" test speakers for electronics. Since I love high sensitivity speakers I thought ok if these sound good it is perhaps a speaker I can add to my list of potentials in the future. Unfortuneately, the sound that came out was not really high resolution or arguably high end at all. Again, this was circa 2009 so I don't know how much has changed since then...

 

[morricab]

Right on. I think the frustrating thing at times with Brad's posts is he feels everything except SET/horns is wrong and that the rest of our ears are screwed up if we don't like them. And the irony is he's never heard a properly setup Zu system in a home. I just can't fathom why he (and others) can't understand that folks actually prefer SS over tube, or PP over SET, or what not - and its not due to lack of experience.

Audio isn't black or white - and shouldn't be. My thing is let people try on their own and see what they like- not dictate what they "should" like. Its off-putting, not unlike the Harman/measurement crowd discussions from Amir's days on the forum.

as far as Phil's Zu comments vs horns - as long as I've known Phil his #1 priority is coherency. Clearly any horn/cone system isn't going to make him happy - and there is nothing wrong with that. Others have different priorities (me included). He is correct that WAF on horns is poor and the reason they aren't popular in the US - same with panels. Most of the vintage Altecs, JBLs, etc. are going to Asia - not the US. To say there is a renaissance here is misleading. On the modern front, I've sent messages to JBL several times and *can't even get a demo* in SoCal. There isn't a single pair of Cessaros on the west coast either. The US is very much a cone-centric market and Wilson probably outsells the entire European horn market just in the US alone.

Oh, and I like very much the sound of ribbons and stats with SET very much as well! I might have been one of the first people in the world (or at least one the first to actually post about it) to use SET on big electrostats...why the heck not?!? It sounded great in my 20 m2 room. I don't go in much for conventional wisdom in audio...most of which is not founded in real science anyway.

I am all for coherence but it also falls apart on these single driver speakers when the music gets really complex...not so much in time but in terms of it turning a bit to mush.

When I said renaissance I meant worldwide...US is kind of a backwater in this regard. However, if you look at AVshowrooms you will see more and more horn or hybrid systems popping up in rooms at American high end shows. It is also relative...clear horns won't outsell boxes anytime soon if ever. But compared to what was available 20 years ago...it's a bonanza!

 

[morricab]

Brad, you're a thoughtful guy, but Zus circa 2009 are the Ice Age. You need to hear them circa 2019, starting w Druids 6. A totally different animal.

If you say so...looks a lot like more of the same just using a compression "tweeter" (can't really call the Radian 850pb a tweeter...its really not designed for the high treble funny enough) instead of a ribbon (I think that is what the ones I heard had). But could be a whole lot better I agree because one can only tell a bit from seeing the externals...

 

[caesar]

...

as far as Phil's Zu comments vs horns - as long as I've known Phil his #1 priority is coherency. Clearly any horn/cone system isn't going to make him happy - and there is nothing wrong with that. Others have different priorities (me included). He is correct that WAF on horns is poor and the reason they aren't popular in the US - same with panels. Most of the vintage Altecs, JBLs, etc. are going to Asia - not the US. To say there is a renaissance here is misleading. On the modern front, I've sent messages to JBL several times and *can't even get a demo* in SoCal. There isn't a single pair of Cessaros on the west coast either. The US is very much a cone-centric market and Wilson probably outsells the entire European horn market just in the US alone.

Nice post! I would argue that anything bigger than a Zu Omen Dirty Weekend does not meet WAF. Anything larger than a one foot-squared footprint and 36 inches high just takes over the room, and relegates audio to a back bedroom or a dedicated room.

When people come to my house and see the MBLs, they say "nice lamps" or ask what that is and joke whether I like "I Dream of Jeannie". They assume my corner traps are the speakers.

So virtually any speaker made today by a dedicated audiophile speaker company is for the serious hobbyist.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Brad, those Zus w the ribbon tweeters were the Essences, and everyone incl designer Sean concedes they were a big misstep from Zu. If you're deriving yr l/t view from those, then you're misled on an alien data point.

There's plenty of tech and materials science in the new Druids 6 to be rolled out across the whole of their upper eschelon models ie Druids 6, Soul Supremes 6, Definitions 6, Experiences and new Dominances.

From carbon fibre/Russian birch hybrid monococque cabinets marrying stiffness w lightness, crazy attention to anchoring of drivers, esp the Radian 850s, latest generation of carbon fibre doped paper cones in main drivers, striving to match efficiency of main drivers w sub drivers by boosting efficiency of latter. Etc.

To just call Zu a high efficiency driver in a box is akin to calling a Quad ESL a plastic frame covered with a plastic membrane.

Zu is simple. Simple enough. But not TOO simple.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Oh, and simply great. Simple.

 

[caesar]

When I said renaissance I meant worldwide...US is kind of a backwater in this regard. However, if you look at AVshowrooms you will see more and more horn or hybrid systems popping up in rooms at American high end shows. It is also relative...clear horns won't outsell boxes anytime soon if ever. But compared to what was available 20 years ago...it's a bonanza!

I will check out AVS Showrooms; Peter Breuninger has always loved SETs. And if you are running a youtube channel, there is always so much Wilson, Magico, and other box speakers you can do before the audience starts getting bored with the same old...


But as to USA market for horns growing, I am only aware of 3 horn speaker brands at Axpona this weekend.
1. Big Avantgardes, but they played them with Esoteric SS amp last year, and probably will this year. Not quite that SET / Horn sound
2. Sadurni horns with Doshi. Doshi plays his tube amps with Wilson all the time, and it's a syrupy sound. Don't understand how people like that. I really want to hear what his amps can do with horns. Last year Jose Sadurni had BAT amps driving his speakers, and it was the best I have heard BAT sound. GREAT TONE!
3. High Water Sound either plays Cessaro or Horning

I am not aware of any others, but will be scouring the show.