Zu loudspeakers

[213Cobra]

As I recall, Druid 6 is heavier than Druid 5, so Sean isn't attaining stiffness at less mass, but he is attaining greater stiffness at a lower-rate of mass / materials accumulation than his competitors, which I consider a good thing.

Ideally, Sean would like to get to inert cabinets without super-dense, impractically-heavy boxes. He went that route with Dominance and ended up with 400 lbs. per side. He'd like to dial that back to ~225 lbs on next Dominance. If he had more capital, Druid 5 would be an injection molded structure, but he can't do that yet. Druid 6 could be less manual in its cabinet construction.

Sean is not voicing his cabinet talk like some designers intentionally factor in. He accepts some residual in each refinement, but ever-more suppressed, on the principle that other problems are not worth mitigating sooner. The Druid 6 using energy transfer in addition to resonance control/suppression in the cabinet, to make the cabinet less contributory to the speaker's sound. Druid 6 clearly shows how effective this is. You hear the sense that you are hearing the drivers and not the frame containing them. It's kind of like hearing the difference between a direct-coupled amp vs. a capacitor coupled circuit.

No one is really at "zero" cabinet talk if they have a cabinet.

Phil

 

[spiritofmusic]

Phil, I'm achieving a way more transparent sound atm, a function of isolating the Zus from my reactive floor via specialist footers and Panzerholz, finally nailing my tt install (again critically taking the floor out of the equation, w 180kg of slate/pneumatic isolation), and getting them setup ideally for this room (having experimented w distance to front wall, toe in, seating distance, subtle room treatments, and w yr help, the optimal subs settings).

Other than some noise eradication, the only way to go much further is either a change to truly SOTA amps w Thomas Mayer 211s or 845s using the Mayer/Elrog tubes, or upgrading to Definitions 6 or Experiences.

A good "problem" to have because I've achieved a lot already.

Do you feel Sean's cabinet impvts in the Druids 6 are a real step fwd for getting Zu to make that leap into the music doing all the talking, the cabinets a whole lot less? Is music more communicative and immersive as a result?

 

[213Cobra]

Marc,

Your floor is your major audio problem other than the volume of the room itself, so if you have succeeded in making that big springy diaphragm of a floor moot, then with Zu, amps are almost always the thing to focus on getting right, when seeking further progress. But cost grows large against decreasing increments of improvement.

I have full confidence that Druid 6 construction (not just cabinet, but also the drivers-mounting schemes and general application of energy management) applied to Definition 6 will vault that speaker forward, similarly. But I also think there will be people who prefer less immersion and vividity. Some people aren't ready for the truth. Definition 6 will put you in it.

Phil

 

[bonzo75]

Some people aren't ready for the truth.

Phil

Maybe Tom Cruise is finally ready for the Zus then, to go with his OMA technics

 

[caesar]

Fyne is following the Tannoy playbook of using coaxial drivers in their upper speakers. The lower line has woofs and tweets separate. I don't see any true single-driver speakers there. The coaxials have crossovers just like conventional dynamic speakers. They just look FRD if you don't look closely. Now this arrangement is still simpler than something like a multi-way Magico or Wilson, and can sound quite good, in the realm of crossover-based speakers.

Zu are certainly box speakers but they don't sound like it. There are two reasons for this. First, Sean has steadily been working to remove the box acoustically from the equation by a combination of stiffening, resonance suppression and energy routing to ground, so cabinet talk is heading toward vanishingly small. Second, by avoiding crossovers entirely, and centering the music performance on a broadband full range driver covering ~35HZ - 12.5kHz, he eliminates the driver disparities and phase non-linearlies that contribute to you hearing a locally-restricted box. The unity behaviors possible by the Zu FRD in an energy-channeling structure change your perceptions of box speaker sound.

I have clone monoblocks of Telefunken V69 coming. Also Parallel Single-Ended LS50. And P-P triode able to use either 2a3 or 300B. Then I'll start making some decisions about amplification. The LS50 SE I have is quite remarkable in transparency. Unforgiving and illuminating at the same time.

Phil

Thanks for the information. For us non-techie people, what's a phase non-linearity? And what is the benefit/ harm caused by it to the person listening in their chair?

 

[spiritofmusic]

Maybe Tom Cruise is finally ready for the Zus then, to go with his OMA technics

???

 

[caesar]

Talking about horns, Avantgardes sounded strange at Axpona. Their $60K duo xd model was driven by an Esoteric 30 watt / ch SS amp again this year.

The speakers had startling dynamics, but much of the music was not properly expressed, unfortunately.

Every sound the speaker made sounded like fireworks. Actually, it was more of a grande finale of a fireworks presentation, as the bloom and showers of sparks were all interfering with each other. The individual figures of flowers, spiders, flowers, comets, and waterfalls could not individually express themselves, but instead blended together in a constant explosion. In other words, the decay and the delicacy of the notes were missing...

So is this due to Avantgardes, all horns, the room, Esoteric SS (vs. SET/ tubes), other, or a combination? I did stop by several times, but that was the sound... startling, enjoyable, but missing a lot.

 

[Legolas]

Talking about horns, Avantgardes sounded strange at Axpona. Their $60K duo xd model was driven by an Esoteric 30 watt / ch SS amp again this year.

The speakers had startling dynamics, but much of the music was not properly expressed, unfortunately.

Every sound the speaker made sounded like fireworks. Actually, it was more of a grande finale of a fireworks presentation, as the bloom and showers of sparks were all interfering with each other. The individual figures of flowers, spiders, flowers, comets, and waterfalls could not individually express themselves, but instead blended together in a constant explosion. In other words, the decay and the delicacy of the notes were missing...

So is this due to Avantgardes, all horns, the room, Esoteric SS (vs. SET/ tubes), other, or a combination? I did stop by several times, but that was the sound... startling, enjoyable, but missing a lot.

Never heard those Esoteric amps sounding good. Could be the reason? Having said that, I have a buddy in Italy with Kondo gear, and he had 2 Avante Garde's and sold them.

 

[Audiophile Bill]

Talking about horns, Avantgardes sounded strange at Axpona. Their $60K duo xd model was driven by an Esoteric 30 watt / ch SS amp again this year.

The speakers had startling dynamics, but much of the music was not properly expressed, unfortunately.

Every sound the speaker made sounded like fireworks. Actually, it was more of a grande finale of a fireworks presentation, as the bloom and showers of sparks were all interfering with each other. The individual figures of flowers, spiders, flowers, comets, and waterfalls could not individually express themselves, but instead blended together in a constant explosion. In other words, the decay and the delicacy of the notes were missing...

So is this due to Avantgardes, all horns, the room, Esoteric SS (vs. SET/ tubes), other, or a combination? I did stop by several times, but that was the sound... startling, enjoyable, but missing a lot.

“Horns” are probably the most heterogeneous breed of speakers - you really can’t talk about things as being a characteristic of “all horns” in that way but in answer to your question, it is not a characteristic of “horns” but it is true imho that AG can be a bit shouty when driven with the wrong amps - this is the unnatural fireworks thing you are talking about.

On another note, real acoustic instruments are so much more dynamic than we often appreciate. Very very few standard cone speakers can reproduce real life dynamics.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Caesar, horns are truly emotional communicators. Obviously you caught the AGs in "full on Oscar winning speech mode", with all the tears and the laughter LOL. But horns can also be very calm and forensic.

Never boring, even when they sound poor.

I've actually had the privilege of hearing really well set up AG Duos (Omegas, decade old model), beautifully amped w home made 45 tube amps, and excellent musical front end, first Audio Aero cdp, then SGM2015 server w T&A Dac8, currently w Aqua Formula XHD dac.

It's a really superbly expressive sound, w great lifelike dynamics and soundstaging way beyond my Zus, and very tonally/timbrally accurate.

My only caveat is that the sound is a little tailored to the owner's tastes, singer/songwriter/guitar, female vocals, small jazz group.

But it also excels w quite a bit of bass heavy/fuzzy electronica, and pretty good at string quartets/orchestral.

My material can struggle, sounding flatter and less immersive. Either a function of horns w less than stellar 70s prog and fusion recordings/masters, or Tidal provenance itself.

So Caesar, you ought to give AG another go, preferably in an owners system, where things will be more organic and holistic.

And preferably on tubes.

 

[bonzo75]

???

Tom cruise is a real life audiophile and was told many years ago by Jack Nicholson that he cannot handle the truth

 

[spiritofmusic]

Tom cruise is a real life audiophile and was told many years ago by Jack Nicholson that he cannot handle the truth

Tom also shouted "Show me the money!" at The General, and he showed Tom his lp collection.

 

[bonzo75]

Talking about horns, Avantgardes sounded strange at Axpona. Their $60K duo xd model was driven by an Esoteric 30 watt / ch SS amp again this year.

The speakers had startling dynamics, but much of the music was not properly expressed, unfortunately.

Every sound the speaker made sounded like fireworks. Actually, it was more of a grande finale of a fireworks presentation, as the bloom and showers of sparks were all interfering with each other. The individual figures of flowers, spiders, flowers, comets, and waterfalls could not individually express themselves, but instead blended together in a constant explosion. In other words, the decay and the delicacy of the notes were missing...

So is this due to Avantgardes, all horns, the room, Esoteric SS (vs. SET/ tubes), other, or a combination? I did stop by several times, but that was the sound... startling, enjoyable, but missing a lot.

The duos are not good horns. With esoteric SS they will be even worse. They are best when run with very low watt SETs and held back. Still not good enough. AG trios are better than them, even with SS amps. They are different from other horns but excellent on speed and dynamics and detail and stage, a bit off on tone.

 

[spiritofmusic]

The Duos are not good horns.
Bøllöcks to that.

 

[caesar]

“Horns” are probably the most heterogeneous breed of speakers - you really can’t talk about things as being a characteristic of “all horns” in that way but in answer to your question, it is not a characteristic of “horns” but it is true imho that AG can be a bit shouty when driven with the wrong amps - this is the unnatural fireworks thing you are talking about.

On another note, real acoustic instruments are so much more dynamic than we often appreciate. Very very few standard cone speakers can reproduce real life dynamics.

Thanks. It was still some of the best sound I heard at the show, but I am a horn novice and haven't scouted out the horn territory yet.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Caesar, I've had many a total epiphany w the Duos at Blue58's.
Noone who owns Duos calls them the ultimate in any way. But well set up, they're hugely impressive across a range of genres.

That's not to say you would be sure to ever love them. But they can be hugely entertaining and immersive.

I'm out of any flame war Ked wants to start by making his provocative blanket statements.

 

[caesar]

The duos are not good horns, period. With esoteric SS they will be even worse. They are best when run with very low watt SETs and held back. Still not good enough. AG trios are better than them, even with SS amps. They are different from other horns but excellent on speed and dynamics and detail and stage, a bit off on tone.

Yes, last year they had the Trios with, I believe 6 basshorns. And it was much better sound.

 

[Legolas]

The duos are not good horns, period. With esoteric SS they will be even worse. They are best when run with very low watt SETs and held back. Still not good enough. AG trios are better than them, even with SS amps. They are different from other horns but excellent on speed and dynamics and detail and stage, a bit off on tone.

So more fact and statements of audio gospel. Can we say IMO or I believe, to my ears (please). I think the Esoterics noted at hybrids so not all SS. Still, not heard them sound great (to my ears).

 

[spiritofmusic]

Yes, last year they had the Trios with, I believe 6 basshorns. And it was much better sound.

Caesar, Zu get written off by many at shows. You and I know better LOL.
Do not dismiss Duos too easily.
Some control and soberness in those fireworks exists w the right tube amps, and correct setups.

I had the single most compelling musical moment ever at Blue's.
I think it may have been Sarah Vaughan, thru the SGM/Dac8 into the Duos, 24/96 I believe.

It was the first time I saw that top class digital could be more trancendental than analog. Thru the Duos, there was such a lack of veils it felt like a direct mic feed. No way were my Zus gonna do that. A compare w lp would have been fascinating. To say I was impressed w the Duos that day would be an understatement.

 

[KeithR]

So more fact and statements of audio gospel. Can we say IMO or I believe, to my ears (please). I think the Esoterics noted at hybrids so not all SS. Still, not heard them sound great (to my ears).

On forums, saying “imo” isn’t necessary really. Redundant unless you want emphasis (imo