Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

wil

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Jul 22, 2015
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My statements about SSDs are purely subjective and have been well documented on another site. SSD-related noise has been reported upon by others including the likes of Paul Pang, @Marcin_gps, @lmitche (on AS), and @Superdad and so I will give credit where credit is due. As some are aware, MacOS allows you to boot from an SD card and so back in 2017, this is what I was doing with my modified Mac Mini and the drop in harshness versus an SSD was astonishing. Even with the SSD powered by a battery or an LPS-1.2, the harshness (while less) was very much still there.

Going from a Samsung EVO SATA III SSD to Samsung EVO NVMe SSD lead to better immediacy but even more harshness and so there was an obvious tradeoff. I found that the harshness was not worth the improved immediacy and so I found NVMe SSD (via either M.2 or PCIe) to be the worst possible option.

I began using an Apacer SLC compact flash drive as an OS drive and this was better than an SD card and resulted in the lowest noise floor but this presented challenges as some operating systems (like Windows Server) will not boot from a CF drive. Ultimately, the biggest downside of flash media is they are very high latency drives and while the presentation is very relaxed, I feel like I am sitting way back in the balcony. If I had my way, I would be on the stage with the performers as I crave immediacy.

It is the same problem with SATA SSDs. The slower SATA II SSDs have less harshness than the faster SATA III SSDs with the SLC SATA II SSD sounding less harsh than the MLC variety. For some time, I was using the Intel X25-E as my SSD of choice. I experimented with various SATA cables and they made a difference and my preference was for the Pachanko SATA Reference. I also liked what the SOtM SATA II filter offered. Powered by an LPS-1.2, the noise floor was very low but once again lacked immediacy.

Optane drives are based on Intel's 3D XPoint technology and while not exactly memristor storage, according to @lmitche, it behaves similarly requiring no refresh activity to hold data. With traditional SSDs, there is constant refresh activity. This is why Optane, in theory, is so quiet -- it is quiet until you access it -- and it is so fast that the windows of activity are much smaller. Regardless of what is happening underneath, I have compared M.2 Optane versus M.2 NVMe SSD (Samsung EVO) and the Optane matches the immediacy of the Samsung EVO but does not have the harshness. These differences are not necessarily stark if the motherboard is being powered cleanly, however, to my ears they are fairly easily audible and over a span of a few hours, there is fatigue. Feel free to do the experiment yourself. It's not expensive to do.

Romaz, When you speak of your history with the Mac mini and SSDs causing harshness, are you referring to using the Mini to play from storage on the Mini specifically? I ask because I use the Mini as a Roon endpoint for streaming only, and have not noticed any harshness compared using the Extreme as the endpoint.

In other words, from your experience, do the non Optane SSDs have any peripheral negative influence on sq even if the Endpoint is used only for streaming?
 

vhs

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Dec 12, 2019
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SGM Extreme - 2 week experience: JCAT cards

As previously stated, one of the luxuries that the Extreme provides is that it has several free PCIe slots allowing for future expansion as necessary. This also allows for easy A/B testing.

View attachment 61675

According to Emile, slots 1, 2, 6, and 7 are tied to CPU 1 while slots 3, 4, and 5 are tied to CPU 2. In his listening tests, he found that the Optane card is best suited for slot 3 (CPU 2) from a SQ perspective and so I did not attempt to move that card. He also found that the SFP network card sounded best when tied to CPU 1. I tried moving this SFP card from slot 2 (CPU 1) to slot 4 (CPU 2) and I have to agree, when tied to CPU 1, the SFP card sounds smoother and less coarse and so credit once again to Emile for leaving no stone left unturned. When I compared network cards, I kept them tied to CPU 1. Same thing with USB cards.

As previously reported, the stock dual RJ45 Ethernet ports on the Extreme sound very good. In the absence of any comparisons, I could happily live with the SQ from these ports and so I don't blame anyone who doesn't wish to go beyond but what I will say is that the Extreme is capable of much more. With the EtherREGEN connected to the SFP network card using the inexpensive SFP transceivers versus the EtherRegen connected to either of these RJ45 Ethernet ports even with the Sablon Ethernet cable, I am finding the fiber connection to be superior and easily worth the small asking price of the ER + cheap SFP transceivers.

JCAT Net Card FEMTO

How about the JCAT Net Card Femto? The answer is more complicated. Compared against the stock Ethernet ports of the Extreme, with the JCAT card powered by an SR7, no question, the JCAT card is better and the improvement is not so subtle to my ears. It is more dynamic, more expansive sounding, and timber is smoother and richer sounding. To all that I have subjected to A/B testing, with no exceptions, everyone has preferred the presentation of the JCAT card.

With JCAT vs fiber, this is where things get tricky. The ER along with these cheap SFP transceivers feeding the SFP card is sounding very satisfying at this time. Against the JCAT card being fed by either the ER or directly by my modem/router, the SFP connection has the lower noise floor and better resolution while the JCAT card sounds airier, has more tonal body, and has the bigger sound stage, especially when fed directly by the modem/router.

With Mahler's 1st Symphony, with the JCAT card, I am really liking Thierry Fischer's DXD version:

View attachment 61680

This is a modern recording that I just love. It is clean, dynamic, and with a very accurate sense of scale and was originally recorded using a DXD recorder and so this DXD file is essentially an unprocessed version of the master. These types of recordings, imo, represent the future.

With fiber, I am preferring Bruno Walter's version more:

View attachment 61677

Ignore the smaller size of the above thumbnail photo as that has no relevance. Bruno is the naturally more expressive conductor but casting that aside for the moment, the Bruno Walter version (1961) is a tape transfer to DXD by HDTT that has a very dense tonal quality to it that sounds a touch slow and strident on the JCAT card but nicely adds body to the fiber card. All things considered, this presentation on the fiber card is "to die for." You could see where this leads. Certain recordings may sound better one way versus the other and so there is no clear winner here.

Adding to the complexity, because I have no idea how things will sound with the SOtM sNH-10G, M12 Gold, or S100, all of this will all have to be assessed again at a later time.

JCAT USB Card FEMTO

The stock USB port on the Extreme is probably the best sounding stock USB port I have heard. According to Emile, this port is based off of the ASM3142 chipset that he really likes. In any of my previous builds, especially my last build utilizing a certain ASUS mini-ITX board, the stock USB ports sounded atrocious making something like the JCAT USB card a necessity. With the Extreme, I could once again see why no one would care to try and improve upon this. Here, the JCAT USB card provides an alternative voicing that may not be to everyone's taste but it is to mine. The stock USB port on the Extreme sounds more incisive where the JCAT card sounds fuller and is harmonically richer. The LPS-1.2 does a better job powering this card than the JCAT NET Card FEMTO and the standard SR4 by Paul Hynes is a step better but it is with a DR SR7 rail where the benefits of the JCAT USB card are most fully realized.

USB cables

I'll cut to the chase here. Not surprisingly, USB cables make a big difference. Having been part of many USB cable shootouts, I found the Intona Ultimate USB cable to be the highest resolution cable I had yet heard with no apparent harshness. Some found this cable to sound a touch sterile or mechanical but not me. I really like this cable.

Due to @spiritofmusic's prodding, I reached out to Mark at Sablon and asked to demo his new USB cable and I was quite surprised to find that his new cable somehow matched the resolution of the Intona Ultimate (not a small feat) while providing texture and air that the Intona lacked (although I hadn't realized it was lacking until I heard the Sablon). At a fraction of the price of the Intona Ultimate, this new Sablon is a NO BRAINER.

More to follow...
Great post, Romaz!
 

romaz

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Oct 7, 2015
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Romaz, When you speak of your history with the Mac mini and SSDs causing harshness, are you referring to using the Mini to play from storage on the Mini specifically? I ask because I use the Mini as a Roon endpoint for streaming only, and have not noticed any harshness compared using the Extreme as the endpoint.

In other words, from your experience, do the non Optane SSDs have any peripheral negative influence on sq even if the Endpoint is used only for streaming?

The Mac Mini can function as both a Roon server or Roon endpoint although I chose to use mine as an endpoint. Irrespective of how you use it, an OS drive is necessary and when I used an SSD as the OS drive, I found it to sound harsh. Many have told me they aren't hearing the harshness that I speak of or at least aren't bothered by it and if that's the case with you, then I wouldn't worry too much about what I'm saying.
 
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Taiko Audio

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SGM Extreme - 2 week experience: JCAT cards
According to Emile, slots 1, 2, 6, and 7 are tied to CPU 1 while slots 3, 4, and 5 are tied to CPU 2.

Incredible report again @romaz !

Just a quick correction: slots 1, 2, 6, and 7 are tied to CPU 2 while slots 3, 4, and 5 are tied to CPU 1.

This does indeed provide another means of control as in a NUMA (Non-Uniform Memory Access) aware system drivers tend to default to selecting the "closest processor" for processing / offloading, you can alter this manually if so desired but I would recommend to leave that up to me.
 

wil

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Jul 22, 2015
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The Mac Mini can function as both a Roon server or Roon endpoint although I chose to use mine as an endpoint. Irrespective of how you use it, an OS drive is necessary and when I used an SSD as the OS drive, I found it to sound harsh. Many have told me they aren't hearing the harshness that I speak of or at least aren't bothered by it and if that's the case with you, then I wouldn't worry too much about what I'm saying.
Ahh, and so the seeds of doubt are sown... I'll have to do another neurosis fueled blind listening test just to make sure I'm not missing something. But, I've had two friends (one particularly golden-eared) unable to discern anything either.

It's possible you are gifted (cursed?) with particularly sensitive hearing capabilities. I might have the same kind of sensitivity to visual light and color subtleties that my family, for instance, is completely blind to.
 

EuroDriver

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Sep 16, 2015
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Ahh, and so the seeds of doubt are sown... I'll have to do another neurosis fueled blind listening test just to make sure I'm not missing something. But, I've had two friends (one particularly golden-eared) unable to discern anything either.

It's possible you are gifted (cursed?) with particularly sensitive hearing capabilities. I might have the same kind of sensitivity to visual light and color subtleties that my family, for instance, is completely blind to.

Wil

Your Lampi Pacific with its 300b tubes and your Luxman have a lot of 300b sonic magic, and thoroughly enjoyable for their bloom and tonal color. The noise floor of your system will not be as low as folks with mostly solid state equipment, so its not so surprising that you won't discern as large differences as folks with mainly SS systems when comparing the audible effects of different distributions of RF emissions coming off different components
 

wil

Well-Known Member
Jul 22, 2015
1,482
1,510
428
SGM Extreme - 2 week experience: JCAT cards

As previously stated, one of the luxuries that the Extreme provides is that it has several free PCIe slots allowing for future expansion as necessary. This also allows for easy A/B testing.

View attachment 61675

According to Emile, slots 1, 2, 6, and 7 are tied to CPU 1 while slots 3, 4, and 5 are tied to CPU 2. In his listening tests, he found that the Optane card is best suited for slot 3 (CPU 2) from a SQ perspective and so I did not attempt to move that card. He also found that the SFP network card sounded best when tied to CPU 1. I tried moving this SFP card from slot 2 (CPU 1) to slot 4 (CPU 2) and I have to agree, when tied to CPU 1, the SFP card sounds smoother and less coarse and so credit once again to Emile for leaving no stone left unturned. When I compared network cards, I kept them tied to CPU 1. Same thing with USB cards.

As previously reported, the stock dual RJ45 Ethernet ports on the Extreme sound very good. In the absence of any comparisons, I could happily live with the SQ from these ports and so I don't blame anyone who doesn't wish to go beyond but what I will say is that the Extreme is capable of much more. With the EtherREGEN connected to the SFP network card using the inexpensive SFP transceivers versus the EtherRegen connected to either of these RJ45 Ethernet ports even with the Sablon Ethernet cable, I am finding the fiber connection to be superior and easily worth the small asking price of the ER + cheap SFP transceivers.

JCAT Net Card FEMTO

How about the JCAT Net Card Femto? The answer is more complicated. Compared against the stock Ethernet ports of the Extreme, with the JCAT card powered by an SR7, no question, the JCAT card is better and the improvement is not so subtle to my ears. It is more dynamic, more expansive sounding, and timber is smoother and richer sounding. To all that I have subjected to A/B testing, with no exceptions, everyone has preferred the presentation of the JCAT card.

With JCAT vs fiber, this is where things get tricky. The ER along with these cheap SFP transceivers feeding the SFP card is sounding very satisfying at this time. Against the JCAT card being fed by either the ER or directly by my modem/router, the SFP connection has the lower noise floor and better resolution while the JCAT card sounds airier, has more tonal body, and has the bigger sound stage, especially when fed directly by the modem/router.

With Mahler's 1st Symphony, with the JCAT card, I am really liking Thierry Fischer's DXD version:

View attachment 61680

This is a modern recording that I just love. It is clean, dynamic, and with a very accurate sense of scale and was originally recorded using a DXD recorder and so this DXD file is essentially an unprocessed version of the master. These types of recordings, imo, represent the future.

With fiber, I am preferring Bruno Walter's version more:

View attachment 61677

Ignore the smaller size of the above thumbnail photo as that has no relevance. Bruno is the naturally more expressive conductor but casting that aside for the moment, the Bruno Walter version (1961) is a tape transfer to DXD by HDTT that has a very dense tonal quality to it that sounds a touch slow and strident on the JCAT card but nicely adds body to the fiber card. All things considered, this presentation on the fiber card is "to die for." You could see where this leads. Certain recordings may sound better one way versus the other and so there is no clear winner here.

Adding to the complexity, because I have no idea how things will sound with the SOtM sNH-10G, M12 Gold, or S100, all of this will all have to be assessed again at a later time.

JCAT USB Card FEMTO

The stock USB port on the Extreme is probably the best sounding stock USB port I have heard. According to Emile, this port is based off of the ASM3142 chipset that he really likes. In any of my previous builds, especially my last build utilizing a certain ASUS mini-ITX board, the stock USB ports sounded atrocious making something like the JCAT USB card a necessity. With the Extreme, I could once again see why no one would care to try and improve upon this. Here, the JCAT USB card provides an alternative voicing that may not be to everyone's taste but it is to mine. The stock USB port on the Extreme sounds more incisive where the JCAT card sounds fuller and is harmonically richer. The LPS-1.2 does a better job powering this card than the JCAT NET Card FEMTO and the standard SR4 by Paul Hynes is a step better but it is with a DR SR7 rail where the benefits of the JCAT USB card are most fully realized.

USB cables

I'll cut to the chase here. Not surprisingly, USB cables make a big difference. Having been part of many USB cable shootouts, I found the Intona Ultimate USB cable to be the highest resolution cable I had yet heard with no apparent harshness. Some found this cable to sound a touch sterile or mechanical but not me. I really like this cable.

Due to @spiritofmusic's prodding, I reached out to Mark at Sablon and asked to demo his new USB cable and I was quite surprised to find that his new cable somehow matched the resolution of the Intona Ultimate (not a small feat) while providing texture and air that the Intona lacked (although I hadn't realized it was lacking until I heard the Sablon). At a fraction of the price of the Intona Ultimate, this new Sablon is a NO BRAINER.

More to follow...
Extremely valuable report, Romaz. The amount of careful work and disciplined listening in this kind of testing is just mind-boggling.

I found it interesting that you found a positive result eliminating your 50' of ethernet by moving your modem/router closer in to your server.

I've been thinking of extending the fiber from the house by 70' to the external Studio where my Audio resides, thus taking the 70' of ethernet out of my audio path. I would re-locate the ONT and Att modem to the Studio and use the 70' of ethernet to feed back to the wifi router at the house.

This would require using fiber couplers to extend the fiber length, but I'm guessing this would be better than the alternative use of fmc's?
 

wil

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Jul 22, 2015
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Wil

Your Lampi Pacific with its 300b tubes and your Luxman have a lot of 300b sonic magic, and thoroughly enjoyable for their bloom and tonal color. The noise floor of your system will not be as low as folks with mostly solid state equipment, so its not so surprising that you won't discern as large differences as folks with mainly SS systems when comparing the audible effects of different distributions of RF emissions coming off different components

Good point, EuroDriver. I have recently replaced the Luxman 300b bloom with a more resolving Bakoon ss amp. I also tend to think my system, with Avantgarde Horns is pretty unforgiving to system noise... but worth another careful comparison.
 

matthias

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Mar 14, 2019
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It speaks for the credibility of both Emile and Romaz that they came to the same conclusion regarding the EtherRegen.
Both seem to be hearing like a bat:)

Matt
 

Kris

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Mar 4, 2019
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It speaks for the credibility of both Emile and Romaz that they came to the same conclusion regarding the EtherRegen.
Both seem to be hearing like a bat:)

Matt

I got to the same conclusions with ER After few months Of experimenting.
ER is great but only with use of A side ports.
B is great but you will miss dynamics And precision.
going from A LAN to sfp or from fiber to LAN A side is also great !
 
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BaconBrain

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Aug 28, 2019
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I got to the same cncusions with ER Anter few months Of experimenting.
ER is great but only with use of A side ports.
B is great but you will miss dynamics And precision

I struggle to understand the logic of this given that by the manufacturers own design it should be the other way around ...
 

matthias

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Recently, I upgraded my internet bandwidth from 200Mb/s to a full 1000Mb/s which forced me to upgrade to a different modem/router since this router maxed out at 300Mb/s of bandwidth. I purchased the following ARRIS SURFboard SBG8300 modem/router which is capable of a full gigabit of Internet bandwidth but it was with reluctance since my old modem/router had its clocks replaced and this one didn't:

View attachment 61664

My fears were unfounded because even without any clocks replaced, the SQ improvement with this modem/router is quite a bit better than the Netgear. Improved dynamics and a much bigger sound stage are what really stand out. Powered once again by my SR7, the improvement here is not so subtle.

Hi Romaz,

I am considering to upgrade to 1000Mb/s as well.
Did you compare several modem/routers and this Arris was the best sounding one?

Thanks

Matt
 
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Kris

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I had my Router Wifi being serious bottleneck in my system .
Could you please share your final „best” router you use with extreme ?
In my system router that was the biggest enemy of a great sound .
Do you use separate router and separate access point ?
Is someone with extreme using Wire only for the roon playback ? is that better ?
 

matthias

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Mar 14, 2019
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I struggle to understand the logic of this given that by the manufacturers own design it should be the other way around ...

"It is a touch less warm and more coarse than the "B" side but transients are more fully and dynamically expressed."

Maybe the manufacturer has different sonic priorities?

Matt
 

Kris

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Mar 4, 2019
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I struggle to understand the logic of this given that by the manufacturers own design it should be the other way around ...

By having top class sports car you might like the way it looks and handles ,
no need for the top speed it was designed for

Thanks God they did design the ER the way it is so flexible for all of us !
 

dminches

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Oct 22, 2011
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"It is a touch less warm and more coarse than the "B" side but transients are more fully and dynamically expressed."

Maybe the manufacturer has different sonic priorities?

Matt

I don’t think they built this with specific sonic qualities in mind but Alex @Superdad And John should speak for themselves.

I haven’t tried using only “A” ports but I certainly will given the feedback from Emile and Roman.
 

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