Chronosonic XVX.

bonzo75

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Which speakers? The ones that this thread is about?

I thought this was following up from the recent Magico Wilson discussion
 

andromedaaudio

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I have heard there is a 6 hours waiting list for the speakers sweetspot during covid :(:)
I think they have to make the munich show 10 days straight next year to give everybody a listen .
 

LL21

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I do agree with Ked on listening to live acoustic instruments , it helps when determining timbre of such instruments thru your system..

A grand or mini grand piano at home destroys all stereo systems i have ever heard ..
Agree...piano recording, complex orchestral, live acoustic and deep house/electronica...those are the ones I listen to most to evaluate...and then I leave the rest of the recordings to sound how they sound.
 

LL21

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@LL21,

Agree its adjustability is also its Achilles heel in the wrong hands , My IRS is the same as Arnie’s last mod made them very adjustable and its a nightmare when not knowing how, to muck them up ...
Wow...I did not know that. Bigger, more complex...and you need a ladder to touch the top (or at least i certainly do!) I have heard the Genesis 1.2s before...the closest I have come to hear your IRS Vs...insane. A truly memorable experience.
 

PeterA

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The problem with audio is :
There is no actual finishline , so declaring yourself a winner when there is no actual finishline is kinda hard / imposible .
One can keep running /searching though :rolleyes::)

Kedar is the winner. He knows what is best and he knows what is worst. And he tells others what is what. He also knows the finish line he just has not bought it yet.
 

Alrainbow

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Just to clarify my opinion, I don't feel these speakers show different recordings all at all... Had also emphasized this in the tranparency to recordings discussion. Quite the contrary, they emphasize an artificial, synthetic tone color and soundstage across all recordings. So to me nothing is remotely relatable.


Can electronics cause this too ..?

I have heard WA on VTL, also on DAG and Krell , years ago Spectral , they all sounded different , i thought VTL not a good match thick and too warm sounding ..

Don't ask models thats too much to remember now :)
 

Al M.

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KeithR

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Actually, you got that wrong. I prefer neither, but of all the Magico and Wilson systems I have heard, the best have been the Dagostino Alexandria, X2S2, then the Dagostino Sasha 2, and the Grand Slamm X1 owned by Gian's friend with Riviera.

The Alexia 1 was probably the least good of all Wilsons. In fact the Sasha 1, Sophia, and Alexia 1 series was the weak link between watt puppies and the Sasha 2. I have heard the XLF with VTL S400 and Spectral 400s. Quite poor with VTL, heaviliy muddied midbass and the mouth of the singer is like half open, highly rolled off. Incoherent with both amps.
.

Agreed that the bigger the Wilson, the worse the coherence. DAW is the best I’ve heard in that department.

I also hear different instruments from different drivers, no matter what bigger Wilson setup I’ve heard. You can’t unhear it once you notice.
 
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bonzo75

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Even much lower priced electrostats are ruthless on crap recordings.
 

sbo6

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Yes, Tektons are outstanding. But I respectfully disagree with you on Zu.

Zu excels exactly at what Wilson XVX's weakness is - emotionally compelling sound on bad recordings.

Here's a thread describing the essence of Zu: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/zu-loudspeakers.27476/

And for those who don't find Zu to their taste, they have a 60 day money back guarantee.

We all have our favorite speakers and components but let's be fair - Zu Audio isn't even close to playing in the same league as Wilsons. And that may be why they may seem emotionally compelling on bad recordings, because there's not nearly as much to lose WRT sound quality versus Wilson.
 

sbo6

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Wilson has much more bass weight than Magico. Magico sounds quite light compared to Wilson. Those who prefer Magico over Wilson in bass will find Magico's bass cleaner and faster and more detailed, and Wilson's muddier.

Magico disappear more easily than Wilson in a room. They are more coherent than Wilsons. In Wilson, once you go over Sasha 2, coherence becomes a challenge. They sound like separate speakers, you can hear the instruments through in separate sections.

Wilson is warmer than Magico. It is also more colored than Magico, though I also find Magico tonally grey. It has more density than Magico. Magico sounds more detailed than wilson.

If you listen to a Wilson room, the overall feeling will be off a larger sound, more density, warmth, weight. If you go to Magico room overall feeling will be cleaner, faster, more transparent and coherent, less room interaction. Those who prefer Wilson will find Magico colder. I have no real preference for one over the other. I find both not natural in tone and timbre, and they project sound to create artificial soundstages. I find them both quite slow though Magico is faster than Wilson. Tone, micro and macro dynamics, is quite poor by horn standards

The advantages of bass weight in Wilson is best felt using an amp like Dagostino. Using valves reduces this but adds decay which for me becomes too much colour. Those who like Wilson with valves seem more focused on midrange, but then I wonder why they simply don't buy Martin Logans. Many who buy Wilson get taken in by the bass, which I feel is a non-natural artefact designed to impress at shows. I remember one of the manufacturers of a competing cone telling me he wanted to make the next flagship to compete with Alexandria on bass. He really respected Alexandria's level of bass, and felt he was losing customers on that front though his speaker had better coherence and tone.

YG - I prefer YG to both, though some online discussions seem to suggest people finding similarities with both YG and Magico. I have no idea why, except they listen to YG at shows. YG is on Magico side of neutral rather than Wilson, and disappears easily as well. It feels more like an electrostat and has better decay than Magico and I find it more musical. At least at Hailey level, the bass is lighter than Magico and I feel subs are required.

Actually, Avalon if well set up has very good coherence through the drivers, very good bass, and timbre. Very natural. and disappears well. But requires a lot of room. In cones, B&W D3 series also has good weight, one that I like. Zellaton has possibly the best midrange, like a ribbon planar, at least when heard with FM. Stenheim is similar size to Magico with more bass and soundstage and efficiency.

Interesting take, my assessment based on hearing Wilsons and Magicos is somewhat similar but I think you're more black or white in your comparisons; I'm less polarized, to each his own. :)

FWIW - before purchasing speakers last year I listened to quite a few brands and models including Wilson and Magico and I have friends with Wilsons set up quite well IMO. What I've learned is - it depends on the model and series however there are some general audible themes.

Wilsons:
- Cons:
- Wilsons have improved on driver <-> driver coherence over the past years especially with the larger models.
- All Wilsons to some degree have an emphasis on mid - bass.
- Wilsons other than the larger models do not exhibit effortlessness at higher SPLs (like heard with horns and bigger Vivids)

- Pros:
- Very dynamic speakers, any size, more so with larger models.
- Excellent imaging. Spacial cues can be superb if set up properly and with complementary gear.
- Strong powerful articulate bass, remind me of high quality studio monitors back in my amateur recording days. Some may call it overblown bass, to each his own.
- Slightly warm sounding (see midbass bump above), some like it some don't.

Magicos:
- Cons:
- Can sound lean depending on associated gear and room setup. One person's lean is another's accurate. M series rectifies this.
- Can exhibit less than tight and strong bass unless exceptional amplification is applied.

- Pros:
- Dynamics are excellent with great gear, lots of power required
- Driver coherence is exceptional - of one cloth if set up correctly.
- Very good imaging (not as spot - on as Wilson)
- With the M series - phenomenal realism (tonal accuracy, balance), effortless at higher levels.

Both brands are top performers and there is no perfect loudspeaker but what excites me is the breadth of newer contenders over the past ~10 years (Vivid, YG, Evolution Acoustics, Raidho, etc.) which pushes the more traditional brands to deliver better more competitive speakers (including Vandersteen, Von Schweikert, Wilson). It's all good!
 
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ALF

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...so, pay a visit to the general and spend the rest of your budget on Zu and, as Kedar, says lower priced electronics...you get the best of both worlds:

great sound and you are net cashflow positive when you exit the hobby :)!

vbw,
-a
 

ALF

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a little tongue-in-cheek with the comment above..

...see the general, get the XVX, WAMM, or M9...along with some stellar electronic kits...

then, you will be able to exit cashflow neutral :)!

vbw,
-a
 
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tima

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I also hear different instruments from different drivers, no matter what bigger Wilson setup I’ve heard. You can’t unhear it once you notice.

I've read this from you, Keith, several times. I recall the first time when I thought hmmm... interesting. So I listened to one of my Alexia Series 2 for individual instruments coming off individual drivers. And yes, sitting a couple feet away from a speaker I could hear, for example, woodwinds coming from the mid-range and not from the woofers.

When I went back to my listening chair I did not hear woodwinds coming off the midrange of that one speaker. I heard them between eleven-thirty and two o'clock in the sound field. Stereo imaging was working. I tried forcing myself to listen to individual speakers - that didn't work so well. I thought about disconnecting one channel, then I thought that's not how I listen or why I bought the speakers.

While I generally believe we hear the same sounds very similarIy, I suppose this may be an example of subjectivity in how we process what we hear. Perhaps there is a greater susceptibility of time arrival differences. I don't doubt your description of your experience. My case is just the opposite, once I heard individual instruments from a driver (which you cannot unhear), from the listening position it was nigh impossible for me to hear them like that again.

When John Giolas set up the Alexia 2s per the Wilson method, I watched how he moved them in v. small increments. There came a point when I and Marc Mickelson (who was also there) both said to John, almost at the same time: 'John you made them disappear.' Their proper position became even more obvious when he moved them out of that position. I find the greatest improvement from the original Alexia to the series 2 is their substantial improvement in timing, likely the result of their finer grained physical positioning of drivers. This is an improved area for all the recent models.
 
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microstrip

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Agreed that the bigger the Wilson, the worse the coherence. DAW is the best I’ve heard in that department.

I also hear different instruments from different drivers, no matter what bigger Wilson setup I’ve heard. You can’t unhear it once you notice.

I am not astonished. Our own prejudice and negative bias are strong parts of this hobby. Once we have a negative experience our minds focus on it and keeps telling us about it.

Physically the sound comes from the center of the cone. If you make a frequency sweep you should be able to locate the source of the sound along the frequencies. However as soon as music starts our brain will teach us how to ignore it.

In my room the XLFs sound as seamless as the SoundLab's if properly amplified. However used with a very poor source or amplification with distortion we start listening to the elevated tweeter or the medium units.

One of my best audio experiences include the famous Dynaudio Consequence One - the large Dynaudio with great speaker units in reverse alignment, the tweeter was at floor level . In a 80 square meter large room there was only music , every frequency came from the musicians. I later got them, and as soon as we were more than 3.5 meters away from them properly set the tweeter disappeared, perfectly blending with the music. Later a good friend who loved them in my room got them, but sold them very fast - the tweeter at ground level made him nervous!

In this hobby bias and training are intrinsically bound, they rule our preferences and we must train to get more from stereo than it was technically supposed to give us.
 
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Ron Resnick

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I am not astonished. Our own prejudice and negative bias are strong parts of this hobby. Once we have a negative experience our minds focus on it and keeps telling us about it.

. . .
In this hobby bias and training are intrinsically bound, they rule our preferences . . . .

I think this is largely correct, but don't you think (as I do) that these prejudicial presumptions we develop about things are -- if we are alert to them and intellectually honest -- highly self-rebuttal and self-correcting?

Once I decided I didn't care for the Wilson metal dome tweeter (unless driven by Lamm electronics, somehow) I was aware of that sound every time I heard Wilson metal dome tweeters. But once Wilson switched to soft dome tweeters -- problem completely solved for my ears.

If I hear a little bit of sibilance I don't personally care from a vdH cartridge, and the owner adjusts VTA and eliminates the sibilance, my mind does not begin manufacturing and imputing sibilance which my ears tell me is no longer there.

KeithR once did an A/B comparison with an isolation transformer listening to his system with the device both in and out of his system, hoping he could prove that it wasn't adding any value so he could sell it. His prejudice/hope was rebutted when he realized the device made a positive sonic difference he couldn't ignore.

I am sure that come the time Wilson makes a speaker which does not trigger Keith's particular driver incoherence sensitivity, he will realize it and acknowledge that the problem is no longer apparent.
 

bonzo75

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Ron, your point assumes Keith has heard Wilson only once. I am sure he has heard it many times, and so have I and so have many others who whatsapp me but don't feel comfortable discussing here. And I have no horse in the race (unless you say I make these posts just to irritate micro

So maybe the prejudice is actually a fact, and it is the side that is prejudiced not to hear the lack of coherence that should work on their bias. Some things just are, so please don't explain them away with preference or bias.
 

Ron Resnick

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Ron, your point assumes Keith has heard Wilson only once. I am sure he has heard it many times, and so have I and so have many others who whatsapp me but don't feel comfortable discussing here. And I have no horse in the race (unless you say I make these posts just to irritate micro

So maybe the prejudice is actually a fact, and it is the side that is prejudiced not to hear the lack of coherence that should work on their bias. Some things just are, so please don't explain them away with preference or bias.

I think Keith's view is a preference. This is getting a bit philosophical, but this preference is, to Keith, a fact. It is a "fact" to you and to Keith and to the people who are WhatsApping you in agreement. Obviously it is not a "fact" to Wilson speaker buyers who do not hear the characteristic which Keith finds objectionable.

I think it is a preference as well as a prejudice. But prejudice is probably too strong a word. I don't care for flatbed pick-up trucks. But does it make any sense to say I am "prejudiced" against flatbeds?

I am not at all suggesting Keith is not hearing the driver incoherence he reports. I am suggesting that he is not in some way permanently prejudiced against Wilson speakers such that he will think he keeps hearing this phenomenon even though a new Wilson speaker does not, even to Keith's ears, exhibit this characteristic.

When Keith auditions a new Wilson speaker he may have a sonic prejudice against the speaker (based on hearing this characteristic in different Wilson speakers over a long period of time), but I am suggesting this is a rebuttable presumption. If the speaker does not exhibit, to Keith's ears, the offending characteristic of hearing the separate drivers, I do not think his mind will impute prejudicially that he does.
 
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sbo6

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This hobby includes audiophiles from all camps, those with bias that will never be altered, those with bias that can be somewhat altered and some with minimal / no bias that accept what they hear as objectively as possible. I know folks who will always believe that metal drivers sound "tinny" and ML panels sound "like plastic" but I bet a dollar if you blindfolded them their bias would fade away.
 

PeterA

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I think Keith's view is a preference. This is getting a bit philosophical, but this preference is, to Keith, a fact. Obviously it is not a "fact" to Wilson speaker buyers who do not hear the characteristic which Keith finds objectionable.

I think it is a preference as well as a prejudice.

I am not at all suggesting Keith is not hearing the driver incoherence he reports. I am suggesting that he is not in some way permanently prejudiced against Wilson speakers such that he will think he keeps hearing this phenomenon even though a new Wilson speaker does not, even to Keith's ears, exhibit this characteristic.

When Keith auditions a new Wilson speaker he may have a sonic prejudice against the speaker, but I am suggesting this is a rebuttable presumption. If, in fact, the speaker does not exhibit, to Keith's ears, the offending characteristic of hearing the separate drivers, I do not think his mind will impute prejudicially that he does.

Ron, your legal training is shining through. You have no difficulty speaking for someone else. If I were sitting in the jury box, I would request to hear from Keith directly. Absent that, I would not know what to think about what he thinks.
 
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