Sublime Sound

[bazelio]

But....isn't that the magic of VDH? One off science projects that can sound absolutely amazing but look like a collection of parts. IMO the AirTight carts and the VDH carts are the perfect example of form follows function. The AirTight carts are neat and tidy like their construction. They make no errors but also take no chances. The VDH carts however.....

Certainly the notion of "unique works of art" doesn't fit nicely into the confines of clearly publicized specifications and model names. "You get what you get" is another way of looking at it, though. And that doesn't necessarily tickle everyone's fancy.

 

[Holli82]

We all live charmed lives... hanging out comparing and writing about the sound we’re hearing (not hearing) from our much too expensive record players and needles!

good thing we drink "inexpensive" wine

 

[ddk]

Certainly the notion of "unique works of art" doesn't fit nicely into the confines of clearly publicized specifications and model names. "You get what you get" is another way of looking at it, though. And that doesn't necessarily tickle everyone's fancy.

Your case is different from the norm Brian, it didn’t come from a proper source nor was it physically a GC. You were rightfully dissatisfied with the cartridge but that was not representative of the van den Hul.

david

 

[ddk]

But....isn't that the magic of VDH? One off science projects that can sound absolutely amazing but look like a collection of parts. IMO the AirTight carts and the VDH carts are the perfect example of form follows function. The AirTight carts are neat and tidy like their construction. They make no errors but also take no chances. The VDH carts however.....

They’re not one off projects Jeff, a lot of confusion is with naming and poor communication, cartridges of a particular series are actually pretty consistent. A lot of the confusion is due to the GC and/or 5R designation, it started off with a few so called “perfect” Master Sigs and then the name morphed into a new model which has multiple variants. I’m not blaming anyone for the confusion or that it’s the perfect cartridge for everyone, only that they’re not all one offs and you get what you get.

david

 

[tima]

They’re not one off projects Jeff, a lot of confusion is with naming and poor communication, cartridges of a particular series are actually pretty consistent. A lot of the confusion is due to the GC and/or 5R designation, it started off with a few so called “perfect” Master Sigs and then the name morphed into a new model which has multiple variants. I’m not blaming anyone for the confusion or that it’s the perfect cartridge for everyone, only that they’re not all one offs and you get what you get.

david

Hopefully without perpetuating confusion, I'll ask what is the 5R designation?

 

[PeterA]

Yes, Peter, of course it's your own system. That's a given. As we've discussed, at this level, system matching is key and then preference is the real decision maker. You've made tweaks to your system in order to obtain the best experience from the VdH sound. Presumably you've tweaked the cart alignment also. Generally, your tweaks add up to me. The VdH can be a bit tilted in the treble and also a bit lean. Certainly compared to many Japanese carts. But, off axis, straight forward speaker arrangement will help roll the treble somewhat, which is advantageous for the VdH, IME, but not so for the Opus 1. By contrast, I listen to the Opus 1 on axis in an equilateral triangle arrangement. The treble shines and shimmers - bright, in a good, natural way. The soundstage is huge. No toe out needed. Treble with bright clarity and full body simultaneously, for example on cymbals, was a new experience with the Opus 1. The Western Electric vintage wires have a "classic" tone which I would also think works well with VDH, and CC PCs are a bit subdued. I have 6 of the CCs myself and I have compared WE wire to Duelund tinned copper wire some time back. I didn't have "speaker cables" made as there is no need for any connectors. I simply connected the bare wire to my binding posts. I'd used this wire to counter a fairly bright SS phono stage, and it worked well. But I removed it from my system when I sold that phono. Anyhow, I digress, and my point here is that you've put a lot into your room and system to best achieve your desired end result. I think you'd be in a very different place if these tweaks were evaluated with an Opus 1 or really any other cart in the tonearm from the get go. Conjecture, but I bet 85% of what we hear in a system and react to with tweaks is the cart.

Brian, having now completed round two of my comparison, I came back to read this post of yours. People have written me privately that you make some good points here. I will say that I agree that systems are fine tuned for the components one has in them at the time. That makes sense to me. However, there are some other factors that do not fit the narrative you are presenting which lead me to disagree with the thrust of your post.

First, I began my system/room set up changes before the Colibris were my primary cartridges. I was listening to both my MSL Signature Gold and the Colibri XPP when I began some of the radical experiments to remove all room treatment, take out my Transparent cables and cords, deflate or remove all of my pneumatic isolation platforms, and adjust my speaker orientation. I found each of those changes to contribute to a more natural sound regardless of whether I was listening to the Colibri or one of my Japanese cartridges. The more changes I made, the more I heard what the Colibri, first MS then GC, was capable of. After I began listening primarily to the Colibri, I only made small changes to speaker position, cartridge fine tuning, and some subtle furniture and window treatment changes.

To suggest that I use "antique" speaker cables and Ching Cheng power cords and prefer zero toe in for my speaker orientation BECAUSE of system matching to the Colibri Grand Cru is simply not true.

Second, the characteristics I hear from the Opus 1 on both arms, namely a slight emphasis on the lower midrange, a slight treble roll off, and an overall warmer less dynamic sound, I also heard in Madfloyd's system. Ian and Al M. heard it too. These sonic attributes are not a result of my system choices, but rather a characteristic of the cartridge, IMO.

Having moved the Opus 1 to the SME 3012R improved my impressions of its capabilities. I really like the sound of this combination in my system, in fact, as much as I do the Grand Cru on the V-12 arm on the same turntable. How would this be possible if the rest of the system were tailored specifically to benefit the GC? Would not the antique speaker cables and subdued CC power cords and blunted speaker orientation not hurt the Opus 1? This cartridge is the second best cartridge I've ever heard in my system. How would that be possible if the system were optimized for a cartridge like the Grand Cru which is so different?

I think the that both the Grand Cru and the Opus 1 are excellent cartridges. They are both close to the "natural" sounding ideal, IMO. They are just slightly different sound. I think I have set up my system to a point where they both sound excellent. The different arms accentuate those differences a bit, but that is all.

Have you watched all four videos? Do you recognize the sound of the Opus 1 on the 3012R in the video? Does it resemble in any way the sound of the Opus with which you are familiar in your own system?

I had been looking forward to hearing the Opus in my system ever since I heard it in Madfloyd's system. It is clearly better than my Supreme and my MSL Sig. Gold and after the Colibris, the best cartridge that I have heard, with the possible exception of the Atlas Lambda.

 

[ddk]

Hopefully without perpetuating confusion, I'll ask what is the 5R designation?

According to Mr. vdH he has 5 test parameters and only a very small fraction of the production get perfect scores in every parameter, those Master Sigs were awarded the 5R signature. The original GC in Australian magazine article was a 5R but they called it Grand Cru over there. Now GC is a production model, it’s not a Master Sig sonically but I don’t know if they’re all automatically 5R or not.

david

 

[Tango]

Brian, having now completed round two of my comparison, I came back to read this post of yours. People have written me privately that you make some good points here. I will say that I agree that systems are fine tuned for the components one has in them at the time. That makes sense to me. However, there are some other factors that do not fit the narrative you are presenting which lead me to disagree with the thrust of your post.

First, I began my system/room set up changes before the Colibris were my primary cartridges. I was listening to both my MSL Signature Gold and the Colibri XPP when I began some of the radical experiments to remove all room treatment, take out my Transparent cables and cords, deflate or remove all of my pneumatic isolation platforms, and adjust my speaker orientation. I found each of those changes to contribute to a more natural sound regardless of whether I was listening to the Colibri or one of my Japanese cartridges. The more changes I made, the more I heard what the Colibri, first MS then GC, was capable of. After I began listening primarily to the Colibri, I only made small changes to speaker position, cartridge fine tuning, and some subtle furniture and window treatment changes.

To suggest that I use "antique" speaker cables and Ching Cheng power cords and prefer zero toe in for my speaker orientation BECAUSE of system matching to the Colibri Grand Cru is simply not true.

Second, the characteristics I hear from the Opus 1 on both arms, namely a slight emphasis on the lower midrange, a slight treble roll off, and an overall warmer less dynamic sound, I also heard in Madfloyd's system. Ian and Al M. heard it too. These sonic attributes are not a result of my system choices, but rather a characteristic of the cartridge, IMO.

Having moved the Opus 1 to the SME 3012R improved my impressions of its capabilities. I really like the sound of this combination in my system, in fact, as much as I do the Grand Cru on the V-12 arm on the same turntable. How would this be possible if the rest of the system were tailored specifically to benefit the GC? Would not the antique speaker cables and subdued CC power cords and blunted speaker orientation not hurt the Opus 1? This cartridge is the second best cartridge I've ever heard in my system. How would that be possible if the system were optimized for a cartridge like the Grand Cru which is so different?

I think the that both the Grand Cru and the Opus 1 are excellent cartridges. They are both close to the "natural" sounding ideal, IMO. They are just slightly different sound. I think I have set up my system to a point where they both sound excellent. The different arms accentuate those differences a bit, but that is all.

Have you watched all four videos? Do you recognize the sound of the Opus 1 on the 3012R in the video? Does it resemble in any way the sound of the Opus with which you are familiar in your own system?

I had been looking forward to hearing the Opus in my system ever since I heard it in Madfloyd's system. It is clearly better than my Supreme and my MSL Sig. Gold and after the Colibris, the best cartridge that I have heard, with the possible exception of the Atlas Lambda

It is really nothing to do with how speakers are setup or Ching Cheng or not Ching Cheng. My speakers are toed in not toe straight like Peter's. If you hear a lot of sibilances from your vdh, you will hear it no matter how you move around your speakers, no matter how many absorbers on the wall or none. You will only hear less (but does not mean low sibilance for sensitive ears) if you adjust your cart correctly. I like to think my setup effects all carts the same way. Their differences audibly reveal without needing trained ears.

(I am using your quote but not directly addressing my comment to you Peter. Your comments on the two carts resemble mine.)

 

[bazelio]

Brian, having now completed round two of my comparison, I came back to read this post of yours. People have written me privately that you make some good points here. I will say that I agree that systems are fine tuned for the components one has in them at the time. That makes sense to me. However, there are some other factors that do not fit the narrative you are presenting which lead me to disagree with the thrust of your post.

First, I began my system/room set up changes before the Colibris were my primary cartridges. I was listening to both my MSL Signature Gold and the Colibri XPP when I began some of the radical experiments to remove all room treatment, take out my Transparent cables and cords, deflate or remove all of my pneumatic isolation platforms, and adjust my speaker orientation. I found each of those changes to contribute to a more natural sound regardless of whether I was listening to the Colibri or one of my Japanese cartridges. The more changes I made, the more I heard what the Colibri, first MS then GC, was capable of. After I began listening primarily to the Colibri, I only made small changes to speaker position, cartridge fine tuning, and some subtle furniture and window treatment changes.

To suggest that I use "antique" speaker cables and Ching Cheng power cords and prefer zero toe in for my speaker orientation BECAUSE of system matching to the Colibri Grand Cru is simply not true.

Second, the characteristics I hear from the Opus 1 on both arms, namely a slight emphasis on the lower midrange, a slight treble roll off, and an overall warmer less dynamic sound, I also heard in Madfloyd's system. Ian and Al M. heard it too. These sonic attributes are not a result of my system choices, but rather a characteristic of the cartridge, IMO.

Having moved the Opus 1 to the SME 3012R improved my impressions of its capabilities. I really like the sound of this combination in my system, in fact, as much as I do the Grand Cru on the V-12 arm on the same turntable. How would this be possible if the rest of the system were tailored specifically to benefit the GC? Would not the antique speaker cables and subdued CC power cords and blunted speaker orientation not hurt the Opus 1? This cartridge is the second best cartridge I've ever heard in my system. How would that be possible if the system were optimized for a cartridge like the Grand Cru which is so different?

I think the that both the Grand Cru and the Opus 1 are excellent cartridges. They are both close to the "natural" sounding ideal, IMO. They are just slightly different sound. I think I have set up my system to a point where they both sound excellent. The different arms accentuate those differences a bit, but that is all.

Have you watched all four videos? Do you recognize the sound of the Opus 1 on the 3012R in the video? Does it resemble in any way the sound of the Opus with which you are familiar in your own system?

I had been looking forward to hearing the Opus in my system ever since I heard it in Madfloyd's system. It is clearly better than my Supreme and my MSL Sig. Gold and after the Colibris, the best cartridge that I have heard, with the possible exception of the Atlas Lambda.

Peter, I think it's very simple and doesn't warrant numerous paragraphs. The Opus 1 is a less energetic, less bright, and more full bodied sound than the VdH. But with the right (different) system component choices and setup, the end result can sound as or more natural (we get subjective now) with dynamism, pace, texture, timbre, decay, etc. And if we then put the VdH into THAT system, it'll tear your head off. As David says, the final result is the sum of all parts. And so there's more than one way to get to a final destination. You've chosen yours. Good for you. Be happy with where you're at. You don't need to convince me. I'm going to remain happy with a different approach.

 

[PeterA]

Peter, I think it's very simple and doesn't warrant numerous paragraphs. The Opus 1 is a less energetic, less bright, and more full bodied sound than the VdH. But with the right (different) system component choices and setup, the end result can sound as or more natural (we get subjective now) with dynamism, pace, texture, timbre, decay, etc. And if we then put the VdH into THAT system, it'll tear your head off. As David says, the final result is the sum of all parts. And so there's more than one way to get to a final destination. You've chosen yours. Good for you. Be happy with where you're at. You don't need to convince me. I'm going to remain happy with a different approach.

Brian, I’m not making any comments about your choices or the sound of your system which I have never heard in person or in video. However you made some presumptions about my choices and why I made them. I simply wanted to explain my perspective and correct your assumptions about my choices with which I disagree.

I appreciate that we all make different choices and set up our systems for our own satisfaction. My point is that my system would probably be set up very similarly If I never had the Colibrí in it and just continue to listen to my Japanese cartridges.

For me it is not so much about total balance but more about the increased amount of information retrieved from the Colibri and how it is presented.

I do think it is worth noting that like me Tang gets great results from both cartridges in the his system too. And his system is quite different from mine.

I understand that some people have a very strong reaction against this cartridge. That is fine. Congratulations on your choice of the Opus 1. It is excellent.

 

[bazelio]

What I meant to convey is that your particular choices (whether intentionally, on the advice of someone else, or entirely accidentally - I really don't care) compliment your particular cartridge (the VdH) in a way they do not compliment other cartridges. And this is borne out in your videos. I prefer your videos with the VdH over the Opus 1 as well.

 

[Al M.]

[...] First, I began my system/room set up changes before the Colibris were my primary cartridges. I was listening to both my MSL Signature Gold and the Colibri XPP when I began some of the radical experiments to remove all room treatment, take out my Transparent cables and cords, deflate or remove all of my pneumatic isolation platforms, and adjust my speaker orientation. I found each of those changes to contribute to a more natural sound regardless of whether I was listening to the Colibri or one of my Japanese cartridges. The more changes I made, the more I heard what the Colibri, first MS then GC, was capable of. After I began listening primarily to the Colibri, I only made small changes to speaker position, cartridge fine tuning, and some subtle furniture and window treatment changes.

To suggest that I use "antique" speaker cables and Ching Cheng power cords and prefer zero toe in for my speaker orientation BECAUSE of system matching to the Colibri Grand Cru is simply not true.

Having closely followed the gradual evolution of Peter's system in person with my own ears, I can confirm that his cable choices and speaker toe-out have nothing to do with the vdH cartridges.

 

[tima]

According to Mr. vdH he has 5 test parameters and only a very small fraction of the production get perfect scores in every parameter, those Master Sigs were awarded the 5R signature. The original GC in Australian magazine article was a 5R but they called it Grand Cru over there. Now GC is a production model, it’s not a Master Sig sonically but I don’t know if they’re all automatically 5R or not.

Thanks, David.

 

[Tango]

@PeterA. I need to put this word down before I forget. The past two days I have been fine tuning my cart setups, the Opus1, MS and GC. The GC is now showing its great dna by the way. What I find the vdh does better than others that I have heard is it sounds so very "un-congested". So un-congested to the point it makes even the Opus1 which has greatest strength in area of dimensionality and space feel "congested" when listening big orchestra comparing to the vdh.

 

[PeterA]

@PeterA. I need to put this word down before I forget. The past two days I have been fine tuning my cart setups, the Opus1, MS and GC. The GC is now showing its great dna by the way. What I find the vdh does better than others that I have heard is it sounds so very "un-congested". So un-congested to the point it makes even the Opus1 which has greatest strength in area of dimensionality and space feel "congested" when listening big orchestra comparing to the vdh.

Exactly. Space is better with GC. Much more open too.

 

[tima]

@PeterA. I need to put this word down before I forget. The past two days I have been fine tuning my cart setups, the Opus1, MS and GC. The GC is now showing its great dna by the way. What I find the vdh does better than others that I have heard is it sounds so very "un-congested". So un-congested to the point it makes even the Opus1 which has greatest strength in area of dimensionality and space feel "congested" when listening big orchestra comparing to the vdh.

un-congested ... that's good Tang.

I like this term and found myself nodding my head to it when reading the above and thinking of descriptions of the vdH MS, particularly when listening to large orchestral music. My agreement was immediate, intuitive. Maybe I will use this word.

Then I asked myself, if I used 'uncongested' in a description of the Master Sig, would someone who has not heard the cartridge know what that description meant?

We do well with visual description and many of the same words and phrases we use for that we try to apply to sonic description, eg. coloration, transparency, etc. I find much of our attempt to describe sound is via connotation which is not explicit or literal, but implied or associative. It's worth saying that associations and implications may include a cultural factor, something usually not found with denotation.

The burden of un-something falls on that which it is not. Un-congested or uncongested depends on its reader having a notion of congested. I haven't heard the Opus 1 and until now I have not heard someone describe it as congested, however, per Tang it can feel (sound?) congested when playing big orchestra - when, and this may be important, compared to the vdH. Okay.

That's all good - so what do these words connote?

Tang mentions dimensionality and space, then @PeterA picks up on that saying "space is better with GC. Much more open too." So they find a quasi-visual connotation. I speculate most of use know that traffic can get congested - crowded, packed, choked, bunched up. There's fewer cars an hour after lunch, less congestion, etc. Look out an office window and see the congestion. etc. Pick another example of congested and see where uncongested takes that.

I'd like to take this a little beyond spatiality and dimension, a little beyond the visual.

We say big orchestral music because not only can the sound be big/large but because there often is a lot going on at once. Lot's of different instruments playing at the same time and often some of those instruments are in the same general frequency range. More of this from dense Brahms choral music going forward. Get into the likes of Tchaikovsky, Mahler, Shostakovich, etc. and we find eruptions of simultaneous multiple lower brass (horns, trombones, baritones, tubas), lower strings (bass and cellos), and percussion (cymbals, timpani, bass drum) , etc. Similar with large choral assembles with all voices singing at once.

Where I find the Master Sig uncongested - and here I want to switch from 'un-' to positive description - is its ability to follow multiple musical lines with clarity, definition and timbral naturalness, while maintaining the proper dynamics of each instrument as defined in the score. The better reveals why it is better. We may not grasp that the QRW cartridge is congested until we hear the VDH parse everything going on in the lower mids and upper bass and we hear and follow all the different lines from the rhythm section with greater timbral and dynamic clarity. Even when playing at the same frequency we can follow. I hear it when my focus is expanded to take in the music as a whole, or when I follow the basses or trombones. You, or at least I, get this in the concert hall and there the visuals confirm it (not cause it.) We might think of this as some form of instrument separation but imo it goes beyond spatial separation.

To me this un-congestion is one of the great strengths of the Master Sig.

 

[PeterA]

I think of it as greater clarity. More open. The music is more free.

 

[Ron Resnick]

@PeterA. . . . What I find the vdh does better than others that I have heard is it sounds so very "un-congested".

I hear this too!

(This is why I find the vdH Grand Cru to be so maddening. Yes, the Grand Cru is the most uncongested, the most transparent, and the most resolving cartridge I've ever heard. But if I cannot relax and enjoy the music while I'm listening to it, why should I have it?)

 

[ddk]

I hear this too!

(This is why I find the vdH Grand Cru to be so maddening. Yes, the Grand Cru is the most uncongested, the most transparent, and the most resolving cartridge I've ever heard. But if I cannot relax and enjoy the music while I'm listening to it, why should I have it?)

IME with vdHs the exceptional resolution makes them the most "natural" cartridges I've come across and the most enjoyable to listen to.

david

 

[bazelio]

In my system, the most dimensional sounding cartridges I've heard thus far were the Red Sparrow and Blue Dragon. Opus 1 is not far behind them, however its presentation is quite different. The VdH being leaner, did give more of an etched outline to things than the other two, but I'd not call any of them congested. Far from it. Right now, I feel as though if I had three tonearms, I'd run Opus 1, Red Sparrow, and Lyra Atlas Lambda on them. All those flavor variants would cover absolutely all bases and then some. I've never heard Etsuro though.