That being said, I do think it makes a lot of sense if you are using Magico speakers and a VDH cart!
Sublime Sound
- Thread starter PeterA
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That being said, I do think it makes a lot of sense if you are using Magico speakers and a VDH cart!
Thanks Keith, your post touches on what I was just discussing with my wife this morning (I know, who the hell discusses these blog posts with wifey!) How are people listening to these videos? When reading this blog/forum I’m usually using my iPad, so listening to videos of any kind through my iPad speakers... not sure what I could realistically learn, or expect to learn from what I hear. Are some of y’all somehow listening to the videos through your audio rigs? Are the audio differences large enough to be heard even played back on an iPad? If so I can’t imagine on a resolving system these could count as subtle.
Bob, are use my iMac computer watching the YouTube feed in HD setting over a HeadRoom headphone amplifier and Sennheiser HD 580 headphones. There have been many discussions about the quality of these videos. I’m not trying to convince anyone that the videos represent this out of my system. I’m only using them for comparison purposes to supplement the written information in which I describe my listening impressions.
People can ignore the videos if they want. Some people have been able to track the evolution of the sound my system through the videos I have posted over the last year and find some benefit to me posting them. Others don’t. It is all good.
“Our” culture is not Tang’s.
I agree that No one in the USA should use the term Jap. The term has been seen as racist in the USA well before the current environment of hyper PC attitudes.
!How did you come to this conclusion Bill, isn't every system the sum of it's parts?
david
There is no "relevant comparison" - we are really trying to compare different rooms, cartridges, settings, music, and recording devices on the internet in 128kb form? And numerous members are using iPads, $10 computer speakers, etc to "evaluate" this presumed comparison?
I mean, seriously guys. This is "whatsbestforum" not "crappyiphonesoundforum"
Vids are fun, you can hear some things sometimes. But they are hardly any kind of comparative mechanism especially at some of our member's system level. And frankly, I would never submit my own relatively modest by WBF standards system to such failed by start comparison.
Bob, I fully recognize the limitations of doing this and really am in @Al M. and @Ron Resnick 's camp, recognizing the significant limitations. But I can detect differences in the macro sense and to that extent, the vids useful. Plus, I generally enjoy hearing the vids despite general shittiness of sound quality. I use a very simple but effective "chain" - a CEntrance DACPort HD DAC as a USB dongle hanging off my Pixel 5, and Koss Porta Pro headphones. About $250 for this combo and aside from a bit of bass boom (which I can tend to factor out mentally), one that I'd generally recommend. The Koss headphones look like toys, but are really surprisingly good. I've also listened to many recordings from Savvas and have been able to confirm with him that my impressions match the in person experience. I've also extracted audio files from Tang's vids and played them in my main system, but that's more work.
All that said, I also loathe how my system sounds as recorded by my phone, and thus, have never posted a file of my own.
i never said it was - but asking other members to post videos to compare sounds to my system over the internet is
my YouTube system sounds better than yours David, don't forget it!
How did you come to this conclusion Bill, isn't every system the sum of it's parts?
david
Let me put it another way - I think it was a very judicious choice of cabling for a cart with a rising frequency response profile (literally inverted B&K) coupled to a “modern” sounding flat speaker with lots of metal in the build
Keith, I think you missed my point, or I misunderstood what Mike was saying. In one of Mike's recent posts, he commented on the sound of his cartridge as heard live in his system compared to either my or Tang's (not clear) video content. I simply remarked that that type of comparison is suspect at best and certainly not "apples to apples". I suggested posting a video so that at least the content can be compared and discussed based on a like-to-like comparison. Nothing more. I am not suggesting that anyone simply post videos of their systems if they do not feel comfortable doing so. No worries.
Thanks Peter, it is good to understand how others (you) are listening and comparing. I suppose it also would be good to know if the microphone used is of high enough quality and accuracy? don’t get me wrong I’m not expecting any studio level stuff here (hear).
I just got the impression Tang was writing hastily, never gave a thought to any disrespect implied.
Let me put it another way - I think it was a very judicious choice of cabling for a cart with a rising frequency response profile (literally inverted B&K) coupled to a “modern” sounding flat speaker with lots of metal in the build
Bill, would that I could make such a judicious choice. Quite a while ago, and before I had the Grand Cru, and perhaps even before I had my first Master Signature, I was listening also to my two Japanese cartridges and determined that I did not like the colorations of my existing cables nor the other ones commercially available that I auditioned in my system. Same with the power cords. I commissioned the DIY cables from a friend independent of any thoughts I have about the response of either my speakers or vdH cartridges. You presume to much of me. The same goes for the toeing out of my speakers and removal of acoustic treatments and isolation platforms. All of that was a move toward a different sound for my system, one that I consider to be more natural. Some visitors clearly don't like it. The vdH cartridges simply give me more information to play with and complete the current picture.
Round Two:
I switched the cartridges on the arms so that the AirTight Opus 1 cartridge is now on the SME 3012R tonearm and the vdH Colibri Grand Cru is on the SME V-12. I started by retaining the set up parameters for VTF, VTA, anti skate, setting azimuth and zenith for each cartridge from the previous set up. Given the different weights of the cartridges, I had to remove one of the extra counterweights on the V-12. I used the MINT tractor for the GC/V-12, which surprisingly works, and confirmed both alignments with the DB protractor from ddk. I played with VTA up or down 1-3 cards until I felt the sound was optimized to my abilities. I confirmed all settings by ear. I then sat down for some more dedicated listening.
I played the same LPs I had for Round One, and again listened to one track with one combination and then repeated the same track with the other combination continuing in this manner through whole album sides. I took notes of my impressions, but mostly to remember specific observations I wanted to write later for this post. It did not take long to assess the relative differences between the two cartridges.
As in Round One, the Grand Cru presented a livelier, more energetic sound. I think timbre remained slightly more accurate, and the musicians and the sound of their instruments was more present. The Opus 1 remained slightly more rolled off in the high frequencies, and still had the slightest emphasis on the lower midrange frequencies. However, the gap between these differences narrowed considerably. The Opus gained some dynamics and did indeed sound better balanced overall in terms of tone. In fact, I was really impressed with the sound of the cartridge on this vintage SME tonearm. What I had described as beautiful string tones, cello, and saxophone sounds earlier on the V-12 have become “gorgeous” or even sublime. This is truly a lovely sound. This cartridge is really superb on this particular tonearm.
Switching back to the GC on V-12, the sound did snap a bit more and breath and come to life compared to the Opus/3012R. It was not as gorgeous and warm with a slight golden glow to brass, but it was quite nice sounding. The GC was not as good as I remember on the 3012R, but close. In this Round Two, I would say I have a more difficult time stating a preference for one combination over the other. On some slower jazz and chamber music, I preferred the Opus/3012R. On some faster jazz like Art Pepper Plus 11, I really appreciated the dynamics and rhythm of the GC even though it was slightly damped by the V-12. I also slightly preferred the separation and more information of the GC on complex classical and choral music. To use a food analogy, I would describe the Grand Cru as a delicious scoop of French vanilla ice cream. It is not a glass of water. However, the Opus 1 is that vanilla ice cream with just a bit of warn butterscotch sauce on top. Who does not like that sometimes when the mood strikes, or even all of the time? I would be thrilled to live with either of these two combinations, where in Round One, I had a clear, though slight preference for the GC on the 3012R.
Heard in isolation, I might still have had a preference for the GC on 3012R as heard in Round One. In Round Two, I would not know which combination I would prefer and would be completely satisfied with either. During direct comparisons, minutes apart, my preference for the GC/3012R was stronger, but in Round Two, again, it would depend on the music and mood.
Here is how I would rank the two combinations as heard by me in my current system context:
1st Place: Grand Cru/SME 3012R
Tied for 2nd and 3rd Place: Opus 1/3012R AND Grand Cru/V-12
4th Place: Opus 1/SME V-12
Of the four possible combinations of two cartridges and two tone arms, I have a clear favorite and least favorite. In the end, the three main attributes that determined the ranking were: clarity, information retrieval and overall naturalness. With different matching, it becomes much less clear and a preference would be depend on the music for which I was in the mood. Perhaps this tells me as much about the two arms as it does about the two cartridges. The SME 3012R seems to elevate the performance of the Opus 1 while the SME V-12 seems to diminish the performance of the Grand Cru. I found that to be quite interesting. My system set up over time plus the excellent resolving abilities of these two cartridges has told me more about the differences between my two tonearms than I knew before. The V-12 is more damped than is the 3012R. This tones down the energy of each cartridge. It also seems to add a bit of emphasis to the lower frequencies. These two attributes seem to hamper the performance of the Opus to a greater degree and this is why I found the Opus to sound better on the 3012R.
System and component matching does matter as was suggested by some of the earlier comments. Because I have these two arms, I have bought two Grand Cru cartridges. If I had two 3012Rs, I would own both the Opus 1 and the Grand Cru. The SME 3012R seems to match better with both of these cartridges than does the V-12. These cartridges are different enough to add some good flavor in the right system.
I would like to thank Ian again for so kindly letting me hear this superb cartridge in my own system and trusting me with its care for two weeks. I am only sad that my audio buddies in Boston can not visit me during COVID to experience how nice these two outstanding cartridges sound in my system. I also appreciate the comments and criticisms from others about this comparison. There is no substitute for actually hearing something in one’s own system. I am now looking forward to simply listening to the Opus for pleasure until Ian returns and I drive back to deliver his cartridge. Perhaps we will put it in his 3012R to compare to his outstanding Atlas Lambda. I suspect the Lambda might sound somewhere between the Opus 1 and Grand Cru, but that is just a guess.
Here are all four videos for easy reference for those who place some value on these recordings. I think that some of the differences I heard when listening to my system are audible on these videos. I used the same volume settings from Round One for each cartridge when switching arms, so all four videos should be fairly close in volume.
EDIT: One can also get a sense of the different tone arms by simply watching two of the videos with the either one of the cartridges on the same tonearm. In that sense, this exercise is really two comparisons, one of the two cartridges and one of the two tonearms.
Video 1:
Video 2:
Video 3:
Video 4:
I switched the cartridges on the arms so that the AirTight Opus 1 cartridge is now on the SME 3012R tonearm and the vdH Colibri Grand Cru is on the SME V-12. I started by retaining the set up parameters for VTF, VTA, anti skate, setting azimuth and zenith for each cartridge from the previous set up. Given the different weights of the cartridges, I had to remove one of the extra counterweights on the V-12. I used the MINT tractor for the GC/V-12, which surprisingly works, and confirmed both alignments with the DB protractor from ddk. I played with VTA up or down 1-3 cards until I felt the sound was optimized to my abilities. I confirmed all settings by ear. I then sat down for some more dedicated listening.
I played the same LPs I had for Round One, and again listened to one track with one combination and then repeated the same track with the other combination continuing in this manner through whole album sides. I took notes of my impressions, but mostly to remember specific observations I wanted to write later for this post. It did not take long to assess the relative differences between the two cartridges.
As in Round One, the Grand Cru presented a livelier, more energetic sound. I think timbre remained slightly more accurate, and the musicians and the sound of their instruments was more present. The Opus 1 remained slightly more rolled off in the high frequencies, and still had the slightest emphasis on the lower midrange frequencies. However, the gap between these differences narrowed considerably. The Opus gained some dynamics and did indeed sound better balanced overall in terms of tone. In fact, I was really impressed with the sound of the cartridge on this vintage SME tonearm. What I had described as beautiful string tones, cello, and saxophone sounds earlier on the V-12 have become “gorgeous” or even sublime. This is truly a lovely sound. This cartridge is really superb on this particular tonearm.
Switching back to the GC on V-12, the sound did snap a bit more and breath and come to life compared to the Opus/3012R. It was not as gorgeous and warm with a slight golden glow to brass, but it was quite nice sounding. The GC was not as good as I remember on the 3012R, but close. In this Round Two, I would say I have a more difficult time stating a preference for one combination over the other. On some slower jazz and chamber music, I preferred the Opus/3012R. On some faster jazz like Art Pepper Plus 11, I really appreciated the dynamics and rhythm of the GC even though it was slightly damped by the V-12. I also slightly preferred the separation and more information of the GC on complex classical and choral music. To use a food analogy, I would describe the Grand Cru as a delicious scoop of French vanilla ice cream. It is not a glass of water. However, the Opus 1 is that vanilla ice cream with just a bit of warn butterscotch sauce on top. Who does not like that sometimes when the mood strikes, or even all of the time? I would be thrilled to live with either of these two combinations, where in Round One, I had a clear, though slight preference for the GC on the 3012R.
Heard in isolation, I might still have had a preference for the GC on 3012R as heard in Round One. In Round Two, I would not know which combination I would prefer and would be completely satisfied with either. During direct comparisons, minutes apart, my preference for the GC/3012R was stronger, but in Round Two, again, it would depend on the music and mood.
Here is how I would rank the two combinations as heard by me in my current system context:
1st Place: Grand Cru/SME 3012R
Tied for 2nd and 3rd Place: Opus 1/3012R AND Grand Cru/V-12
4th Place: Opus 1/SME V-12
Of the four possible combinations of two cartridges and two tone arms, I have a clear favorite and least favorite. In the end, the three main attributes that determined the ranking were: clarity, information retrieval and overall naturalness. With different matching, it becomes much less clear and a preference would be depend on the music for which I was in the mood. Perhaps this tells me as much about the two arms as it does about the two cartridges. The SME 3012R seems to elevate the performance of the Opus 1 while the SME V-12 seems to diminish the performance of the Grand Cru. I found that to be quite interesting. My system set up over time plus the excellent resolving abilities of these two cartridges has told me more about the differences between my two tonearms than I knew before. The V-12 is more damped than is the 3012R. This tones down the energy of each cartridge. It also seems to add a bit of emphasis to the lower frequencies. These two attributes seem to hamper the performance of the Opus to a greater degree and this is why I found the Opus to sound better on the 3012R.
System and component matching does matter as was suggested by some of the earlier comments. Because I have these two arms, I have bought two Grand Cru cartridges. If I had two 3012Rs, I would own both the Opus 1 and the Grand Cru. The SME 3012R seems to match better with both of these cartridges than does the V-12. These cartridges are different enough to add some good flavor in the right system.
I would like to thank Ian again for so kindly letting me hear this superb cartridge in my own system and trusting me with its care for two weeks. I am only sad that my audio buddies in Boston can not visit me during COVID to experience how nice these two outstanding cartridges sound in my system. I also appreciate the comments and criticisms from others about this comparison. There is no substitute for actually hearing something in one’s own system. I am now looking forward to simply listening to the Opus for pleasure until Ian returns and I drive back to deliver his cartridge. Perhaps we will put it in his 3012R to compare to his outstanding Atlas Lambda. I suspect the Lambda might sound somewhere between the Opus 1 and Grand Cru, but that is just a guess.
Here are all four videos for easy reference for those who place some value on these recordings. I think that some of the differences I heard when listening to my system are audible on these videos. I used the same volume settings from Round One for each cartridge when switching arms, so all four videos should be fairly close in volume.
EDIT: One can also get a sense of the different tone arms by simply watching two of the videos with the either one of the cartridges on the same tonearm. In that sense, this exercise is really two comparisons, one of the two cartridges and one of the two tonearms.
Video 1:
Video 2:
Video 3:
Video 4:
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Hi Peter,
Sorry you have read too much into my statement. I presume nothing of you
I should have written “it would be a judicious choice imho” rather than “Peter you made a judicious choice.”
I haven’t mentioned “your” toe before but it is a good idea in your system imho.
I have played around with the vintage conductors for circa 5 years now. I have built so many cables using vintage wire from usb to din phono using all manner of them including higher gauge ones and ones with different insulation’s. I think I have a relatively good feel for their sound now.
Enjoy.
We all live charmed lives... hanging out comparing and writing about the sound we’re hearing (not hearing) from our much too expensive record players and needles!
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Did you say "too expensive"? Well, all the hi-fi widows agree Lol.
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