Sublime Sound

[bazelio]

Indeed, everything is about system context and system setup. A few years ago we compared two cartridges in Peter's system (AirTight PC-1 Supreme and my MySonicLab Signature Gold). Back then I suggested that their tonal balance could be made more alike, with less of a clear preference for one of the two cartridges as heard in the particular setup of that day, if the speaker toe-in was changed depending on the cartridge in the system. This would not mean that then the cartridges would sound the same, but that variation in tonal balance would play less of a factor in the assessment of their sonic qualities.

Peter and I have had discussions about how, when evaluating a new component in a system, the system setup might have to be optimized around that component so that it could sound best. This does not necessarily mean change of the toe-in of speakers, but perhaps other changes in speaker positioning or adjustments at the level of electronics or room acoustics.

In my own system of course everything is also optimized around the components that I have, in particular in terms of speaker setup and room acoustics, just as it is in Peter's system now with his preferred vdH cartridges. Were I to change my digital front end, or the amplification, for example, I might feel the need to somewhat tweak the set-up as well.

Some people say that if you have both analog and digital source components, it can be hard to set up the system in such a way that it sounds the best for both of them. My own experiences confirm that, especially when the tonal balances somewhat differ between the sources.

The well-written description that Peter gives of the relative differences between the two arm/cartridge combinations with the vdH and Opus 1 cartridges sounds valid to me. Yet it should indeed be kept in mind that the setup is optimized for one the two cartridges. I also suspect that the assessment will slightly change once Peter switches the arms for the two cartridges.

Yeah, I have never gotten serious about digital. I've always had it as an option but only for occasional convenience and music discovery. So despite never having pursued higher tier sources, I do think what I've done is found a digital frontend that best fits into the system choices I've made along the way for optimizing vinyl ... if that makes sense. I certainly wouldn't ever want to move speakers, change cords, etc in order to fully enjoy one vs the other.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . . On second video, at dynamic peaks I thought it sounded borderline out of control. At those peaks it lost naturalness.

This is how I perceive this as well. When I hear what sounds to me like this loss of naturalness my ears tense up ("defend" as audioquattr says). Anticipating this reaction is why I have trouble relaxing with the vdH.

Isn't it fascinating that in such a subjective hobby -- with so much definitional difficulty -- each of us understands exactly what the others are perceiving and reporting here? I think you could line each of us up according to our preference on this, and we would be merely millimeters apart on the spectrum.

PS: Peter, I think you did a great job matching the sound levels on the two videos.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

The Opus1's clarity and dimensionality could approach that of the vdh but never equal. Play around with it a bit it could sound better than what you hear in this video. The pleasant sound could be more exciting sound with the right arm. The energy and high will never equal the vdh... but what does? The low mid is added when comparing to vdh. But if compare to msl, koetsu and most other jap carts you will know how much more colored those carts are. On second video, at dynamic peaks I thought it sounded borderline out of control. At those peaks it lost naturalness.

"jap carts"

you are better than that.

i believe that my Etsuro Gold cart's (i only checked out 2 of my 3) at least equal the energy and dynamics of the vdH GC on the video, and surpass the delicacy by a ways. yet have all the weight, tonality and body of the Opus 1.

we need to be careful separating opinion and facts.

 

[PeterA]

The Opus1's clarity and dimensionality could approach that of the vdh but never equal. Play around with it a bit it could sound better than what you hear in this video. The pleasant sound could be more exciting sound with the right arm. The energy and high will never equal the vdh... but what does? The low mid is added when comparing to vdh. But if compare to msl, koetsu and most other jap carts you will know how much more colored those carts are. On second video, at dynamic peaks I thought it sounded borderline out of control. At those peaks it lost naturalness.

Thanks Tang. This all makes sense. I go back to the impressions of the Opus 1 that I have from hearing it in Madfloyd's system. There too it sounds warm with a generous lower midrange (or recessed upper midrange) and an overall softer/more forgiving sound. I agree that it is less so than either my Supreme or Signature Gold, or perhaps other Japanese cartridges I have not heard. And I agree that these sonic characteristics are made more obvious only in direct comparison to a cartridge like the vdH Grand Cru.

If I did not own the Grand Cru or were aware of what it sounds like in my system, I would be thrilled with the Opus on my V-12 and look forward to what it sounds like on the 3012R.

 

[PeterA]

"jap carts"

you are better than than that.

i believe that my Etsuro Gold cart's (i only checked out 2 of my 3) at least equal the energy and dynamics of the vdH GC on the video, and surpass the delicacy by a ways. yet have all the weight, tonality and body of the Opus 1.

we need to be careful separating opinion and facts.

Mike, the energy and dynamics of my vdH GC on my video are not like what I hear live from the system. I posted those two videos only so that the cartridge/arm combinations could be compared directly through the videos, nothing more. I would be more comfortable comparing the sound of your cartridge live from your system to my cartridges heard live in my system rather than either to some video. I think that is way to difficult to reach any kind of accurate assessment of either based on one live and one on video. I suspect your system and room are far more resolving than are mine and as such you will hear more from any cartridge you have on one of your many arms and tables.

If you post a video of your Etsuro Gold here, then we could at least do a like to like comparison of how the different cartridges in the different systems sound based on two videos on YouTube. That would at least be a start toward some kind of relevant comparison.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Peter, my comments were addressed to Tang. mainly in the context of the narrative he is projecting.

i've had 10 vdH Colibri's in my system, including a MS on the same arm, TT and phono as the GFS, Anna D, and Etsuro Gold. i understand the energy and dynamics of the vdH and how that goes. and i celebrate that you enjoy it, and that Tang does too.

but when we start to get into the bigger picture and it's implications enough is enough. it's a choice to project absolute truths....or infer them, and that choice will bring on reactions.

and agree with Brian and you as far as system contexts. no doubt. one has to have lots of choices at hand in the same system to get a feel. and i have.

 

[Al M.]

Regarding toe out, definitely personal preference. Aside from not hearing the speaker response as intended, I actually dislike what it does to soundstage. With many records, e.g. hard panned jazz trios, it creates an exaggerated U-shaped stage which just sounds wrong to me. With other material, the edges of the stage sound stretched artificially and scale is inconsistent from the edges to the center.

I am not suggesting that what you describe with toe-out and soundstage makes your system response "wrong", but it depends on the speaker geometry and diffraction pattern, electronics and room acoustics.

I now have achieved an upfront, immediate center image where appropriate, and on far more recordings than it was possible before, while with a lot of large scale music the system throws a much larger, deep soundstage. It took me years of work on my room acoustics to get to a point where the system produces such varied soundstages to my liking. A complicating but deliberately chosen factor is that my speaker drivers are quite far from the front wall, at 7 feet. I guess if I had to do it over in another room I might be faster now, but it would still be lots of work (and a pain, frankly). -- And the result still depends on the particular speakers as well.

 

[bazelio]

I am not suggesting that what you describe with toe-out and soundstage makes your system response "wrong", but it depends on the speaker geometry and diffraction pattern, electronics and room acoustics.

I now have achieved an upfront, immediate center image where appropriate, and on far more recordings than it was possible before, while with a lot of large scale music the system throws a much larger, deep soundstage. It took me years of work on my room acoustics to get to a point where the system produces such varied soundstages to my liking. A complicating but deliberately chosen factor is that my speaker drivers are quite far from the front wall, at 7 feet. I guess if I had to do it over in another room I might be faster now, but it would still be lots of work (and a pain, frankly). -- And the result still depends on the particular speakers as well.

Yes you are absolutely correct. I'm generalizing - which is important to be able to do. But, the devil is always in the details. My Accuton tweeter dispersion is quite good, in fact. But it's easy to go too far, and a straight forward arrangement is much too far at my desired spacing and seating distance. For soundstage width, my approach has been wider speaker spacing than I see in most pictures, but with "correct" toe in. I'm also more space constrained than you are, with less available position flexibility. Regarding frequency response, I've seen some tweeters intentionally designed to be aimed 10-20 degrees off axis. Notably certain soft domes. But the vast majority are designed for and measured for on-axis response.

 

[Ron Resnick]

. . .
but when we start to get into the bigger picture and it's implications enough is enough. it's a choice to project absolute truths....or infer them, and that choice will bring on reactions.

. . .

I am afraid that I do not understand what you are saying here.

 

[MadFloyd]

I interpreted that as 'certain carts project false truths'...

 

[ddk]

In addition to my own 6 Colibris over the past two years I probably installed close to three dozen vdH Master Sigs in various systems, my experience with the vdH Master Sigs and the Opus 1 is pretty much the same as @PeterA & @Tango. The Opus1 is in someways is the best modern mc Japanese cartridge I heard, at least in terms of low coloration or hifi-ness. To clarify I'm not against all coloration as long as the overall sound is "natural" and real. But then come the Master Signatures which IMO and the customers who use them in their systems is on a different level of authority, reality and most importantly to me "naturalness". The experience was the same with every install irrespective of system and compared to all usual suspects in this thread and then some. This isn't a knock on the Opus 1 which I think is fantastic and I would own one if I didn't have another 60+ hand picked cartridges that I like just as much.

david

 

[PeterA]

I interpreted that as 'certain carts project false truths'...

Thank you Ian. Now how does that relate to this discussion about these two specific cartridges?

 

[Vienna]

Peter I think that you belong among those few, who have managed to get a proper VDH Grand Cru and I am very glad.

Some months ago, I was allured by the WBF reviews on VDH upper range cartridges; and rushed to get a GC. I had to pay a markup because I was convinced that these items are very rare and will be of a limited number. With the money I had paid I could have gotten Lyra Atlas SL.

In return I got a very cheaply made Grand Cru cartridge with a misaligned body towards the wooden headshell, poor wooden threads of wrong distance etc. On my attempt to install it, the cartridge had to be skewed to the right side, in order to have enough clearance for both screws.

During the alignment process new problems appeared and trying to fine tune it with Analogue Magik, the distortions i was measuring where unusually high.

During auditioning there was a lot of sibilance and audible distortion. Speaking with AJ he told me that VDH GCs are designed for low mass Tonearms.

I tried to warn a fellow member here, but it was too late ...he had made the payment already. I had the hope that at least his unit would be better; as he was promised that it would fine tuned , to match his Tonearm. After the delivery he noticed even bigger issues and bad sound too.

I was lucky that a friend of mine is collecting cartridges and he purchased mine, knowing the issues I had.

I have later found out, that there is a non-official trade channel with VDH cartridges of dubious quality by people who are claiming that they are AJ’s personal friends and are getting their cartridges for ridiculous prices and are selling them at MSRP levels.

Alike with all trades these phenomena are harmful for the manufacturers. Besides the moneteray damages they are affecting their reputation too.

After this adventure I got Atlas ? and Opus I and had never looked back

p.s. Perhaps if I had got a GC through a serious seller like @ddk my experience would be different

 

[Tango]

"jap carts"

you are better than that.

i believe that my Etsuro Gold cart's (i only checked out 2 of my 3) at least equal the energy and dynamics of the vdH GC on the video, and surpass the delicacy by a ways. yet have all the weight, tonality and body of the Opus 1.

we need to be careful separating opinion and facts.

Newer Japanese carts tend to "add" mid to down low. That's what I see in the trend and of course only my opinion. I have not heard the Esturo Gold in my own system. Yet from what I have heard it did not change my perception of this tone trend. Some add more. Some add less. Some add evenly from mid to low down. Some add only mid no low down. Some add only low down. The Opus1 is added at "low mid" but not "mid mid" or low down bass.

We all have different opinion of what the mid to low down should be...depending on type of music too. Many people also say the vdh "add" high unrealistically. I have no problem with what they think. My type of realistic mid to low bass is definitely different from many people so when I hear many jap carts I hear the "add". I am not saying "adding" is bad. Whether adding or subtracting it doesnt matter as long as the guy who pays for it is happy.

 

[morricab]

In addition to my own 6 Colibris over the past two years I probably installed close to three dozen vdH Master Sigs in various systems, my experience with the vdH Master Sigs and the Opus 1 is pretty much the same as @PeterA & @Tango. The Opus1 is in someways is the best modern mc Japanese cartridge I heard, at least in terms of low coloration or hifi-ness. To clarify I'm not against all coloration as long as the overall sound is "natural" and real. But then come the Master Signatures which IMO and the customers who use them in their systems is on a different level of authority, reality and most importantly to me "naturalness". The experience was the same with every install irrespective of system and compared to all usual suspects in this thread and then some. This isn't a knock on the Opus 1 which I think is fantastic and I would own one if I didn't have another 60+ hand picked cartridges that I like just as much.

david

Well, just in the limited context of the two videos that Peter posted this is how I heard it. Btw., given how many of these VdH carts you have owned and installed, what is the unit to unit variability like? Doesn’t 80+ year old AJ make them all himself still? I have heard you can get a good one and not so good one...

 

[tima]

There is always someone more capable at setting up cartridges. However, the vdHs in general seem more difficult than other cartridges I have tried in my system. My AirTight Supreme and MSL Sig. Gold were not difficult, and the Opus 1 does not seem so either. I don't know if it is stylus shape or something else, but I heard this same qualities from the Opus in Madfloyd's system, when comparing it to his Lyra Atlas SL in his system context which of course I know well but not like my own system. I played around a lot with setting up the Opus. Regarding my cables and power cords, I have heard the Ching Cheng power cords in another system and prefer them to some other highly regarded alternatives. I suppose everything has a "signature."

Yes.

I fully appreciate the patience and tenacity that you and many of us go through to optimize one's system. It is worthwhile to (at least try) getting optimal results from our expensive audio gear and doing vinyl presents its own unique challenges.

And yet, ascertaining and gauging a component's signature, it's basic character, should not be a matter of inches or millimeters. While moving speakers or changing setup a small amount can change sonics, I'd be surprised if such will cause one cartridge to sound like another, much less change its signature.

 

[tima]

I very much agree with the observation about the dynamic peaks. Kind of like a rear wheel drive sports car without traction control on and the back end is twitching and about to kick out lol.

I don't know if that is what I heard but what a great analogy!

... friends don't let friends apex early.

 

[tima]

Some months ago, I was allured by the WBF reviews on VDH upper range cartridges; and rushed to get a GC. I had to pay a markup because I was convinced that these items are very rare and will be of a limited number.

I appreciate hearing of your experience while also hearing your frustration at going through it. It is somewhat maddening that receipt of a cartridge with top flight build is possible but not assured given what the MS or GC are able to produce when they are right. I don't know if this is out of line but I truly hope Mr. vdH is able to train his son to the level of both skill and inspiration that quality improves and excellence endures.

 

[PeterA]

Thanks very much Peter for this insight. It was great to be able to hear both these carts and the Beethoven.

I really enjoyed the way your system is sounding in these and both carts carry you into the music easily... and while I enjoyed both I did think that the GC was sounding more of a piece which (from my perspective) is a very real virtue.

It was great to get another glimpse into where all your optimising is heading and how your system is moving in what is sounding very much like a great direction. Loving the way the music comes through... which is the great summation.

You are most welcome Tao, and I appreciate the kind words. I had been looking very forward to hearing this wonderful cartridge in my own system. I have now switched the cartridges in the arms and have even more insight into the differences and similarities, and also regarding the two arms. I will post round two later today with new videos.

Yes indeed, my system set up is ever evolving toward a more natural sound. Once on this natural train, I can't get off and want to keep going. The latest changes, and perhaps evident in those recent Beethoven videos is that I have moved the two upholstered chairs out of the first reflection spots back towards the speakers. I also opened up the maple wood blinds behind the listening sofa and angled them so that the reflections go up toward the ceiling and not down toward the absorbing carpet as before. I also removed one of the carpet pads under the rug. Finally, it is even possible that replacing my fabric sofa with the new leather one has had a positive impact on the sound. The seat is certainly more comfortable.

These changes away from absorption toward more diffusion have opened up the sound a bit more. I am now able to better hear information on the recording and thus differences between the two cartridges and arms.

 

[jeff1225]

"jap carts"

you are better than that.

i believe that my Etsuro Gold cart's (i only checked out 2 of my 3) at least equal the energy and dynamics of the vdH GC on the video, and surpass the delicacy by a ways. yet have all the weight, tonality and body of the Opus 1.

we need to be careful separating opinion and facts.

Your post regarding the use "Jap" intrigued me so I did a little investigating. It seems that Americans are a little more sensitive to the word due to our history of mistreating and imprisoning Japanese immigrants.

Jap - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org