Taiko Audio SGM Extreme : the Crème de la Crème

[cat6man]

Question about tagging...

I know the LMS part of TAS is going away eventually but for now that's what we are using. I am working on cleaning up my tags but have noticed a number of times that I will correct a tag and rescan the files only to find that nothing has changed in the album artist view. For example, I had a file set with the artist and album artist set to "John Coltrane Quartet" but changed it to "John Coltrane" so all his albums fall under one artists. It is still showing up under "John Coltrane Quartet" even though that is erased from the meta data. I have other examples of this behavior.

Is there something else I should be doing to update my library? Is there a setting where LMS is getting information from some place other than my library?

You need to do a rescan.
You can do a full rescan but I use the rescan for new and changed.

 

[dminches]

You need to do a rescan.
You can do a full rescan but I use the rescan for new and changed.

I have done a full rescan and there are still some gremlins in there. The LMS code is not perfect.

I use a comprehensive tag program so I can see every bit of meta data. Sometimes LMS has a mind of its own!

 

[dctom]

For those who have never tried to improve their network, I can't help but quote Emile:

I can't say it any better.
I've heard so many times people saying that their system sounds so good, and there is absolutely no noise or distortion, hence they don't need to make any changes. That's great. Just enjoy your system and don't think about any upgrades.

Let me get this out of the way. Even with all the crazy experiments I have done (at some point I had over 6 switches in series just to see what it sounds like), I prefer to listen with the network cable unplugged. It's the most transparent way to listen to music. Queue up all the tracks (from local storage), hit play, disconnect the network, and enjoy. This unfortunately does not work with Qobuz! It only works with local music.

Can only concur with nenon's comments here. Having spent a considerable amount of time on audiophile style during the last year eventually constructing a server that out performs the commercial servers I have tried (not SGM ), playing files locally from NVMe storage is the way to go. I guess streaming services are convenient but they are a compromise.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

The LMS code is not perfect.

Ha! This week's understatement award goes to Mr. dminches.

I will try to re-scan, and thanks for that reminder. Frankly, porting over the library, was so painful, the thought of "touching" a tool with unknown behavior and creating another couple of days of work was too frightening, audiophillically speaking.

 

[sbo6]

No. You have misunderstood what I said. Just to clarify.

My first sentence was to point out that people with Extremes have a lot of money invested in digital.

My second sentence reflects my experience. Good digital isn't cheap, especially if one wants to compare it to analog.

Also, you said "who said you need $50k to get great digital" in response to my comments. I certainly never said that and don't believe that to be true. I also don't think you need to spend $30k to get great sound out of turntable rig either.

Thanks for clarifying. Where we differ is your experience where "good digital isn't cheap" especially compared to analog (the inference that "good digital" costs $$ to equal analog). And where your definition of "good" equates to $.

To level - set, starting at the bottom - spend $500 on a TT setup and $500 on digital. The TT setup requires a turntable, a cartridge, a phono preamp and associated ICs and PCs (never mind physical isolation, TT mats and ancillary stuff). Digital requires a DAC and any computer which pretty much everyone has. Which do you think will sound better?

And I'd flip your supposition to say - good analog costs $$ to = digital which costs $. Again, spend $5000 on a TT setup and $5000 on digital. The same component requirements above still apply.

Here's a real case scenerio: ~$5K each
Digital: Mytek Brooklyn DAC ($2100), Aurender N1000H Music Server ($2700), $200 for cables.
Analog: Clearaudio Concept ($1800), Musical Surroundings Nova III ($1500), Clearaudio Virtuoso ($1100), $600 cables.

I had the vinyl setup some years back with an inferior digital to above and I can tell you there's no contest - the digital was superior. With the Mytek and the Aurender, the delta will be profound. IME $ for $ it costs significantly more $ in analog to match the quality of digital with analog overtaking digital in sonics >$15K.

And I'd call any digital or analog at $15K certainly "good".

 

[kennyb123]

I had the vinyl setup some years back with an inferior digital to above and I can tell you there;'s no contest - the digital was superior. With the Mytek and the Aurender, there's simply no contest. IME $ for $ it costs significantly more $ in analog to match the quality of digital with analog overtaking digital in sonics >$15K.

I think it depends on how much has been invested in analog. Based on what I heard with my former analog rig, had you invested twice as much in analog I think you’d have found that you’d have to invest a lot more in digital to surpass the analog you were hearing.

 

[dminches]

I think it depends on how much has been invested in analog. Based on what I heard with my former analog rig, had you invested twice as much in analog I think you’d have found that you’d have to invest a lot more in digital to surpass the analog you were hearing.

That’s been my experience. An inexpensive analog setup sounds way better than an inexpensive digital setup. To me, it isn’t even close.

 

[sbo6]

That’s been my experience. An inexpensive analog setup sounds way better than an inexpensive digital setup. To me, it isn’t even close.

What's your definition of inexpensive?

 

[dminches]

What's your definition of inexpensive?

2-3000 for the source.

In my experience it has taken a lot of time, effort and money to get digital to sound engaging. YMMV.

 

[sbo6]

2-3000 for the source.

In my experience it has taken a lot of time, effort and money to get digital to sound engaging. YMMV.

Thanks. We'll have to agree to disagree as I've personally found the opposite. $2 - 3K in analog = $600 - $1K for each analog component (cart, pre and TT) yields cheap components and horrendous sound.

No matter how you look at it, I do think it's great there are more and more Analog and digital choices available so life is good.

 

[Rhapsody]

Might make sense to take the analog to digital conversation to a new thread or one of a hundred different threads on this subject vs. in the Extreme thread?

 

[Kris]

For those who have never tried to improve their network, I can't help but quote Emile:

I can't say it any better.
I've heard so many times people saying that their system sounds so good, and there is absolutely no noise or distortion, hence they don't need to make any changes. That's great. Just enjoy your system and don't think about any upgrades.
However, this is noise that you CANNOT "hear". You don't know it is there until it's gone. You have absolutely no idea. I've been there so many times! The people saying that there is no noise or distortion in their audio system are simply wrong. Such system does not exist.
There is always a layer of noise or distortion that can be removed in any system. And you don't know it's there until you hear how the system sounds without that.

Let's look at a typical household Internet environment.
The all-in-one cable modems (routers/WiFi/VoIP/etc.) provided by our ISPs are cheap and noisy consumer devices. Connect your server to one of these, and a lot of that noise goes from the noisy device to your server. Now the server has to work much harder to clean up this noise. Imagine this - I live in the heart of Chicago and I have a coax cable coming to my house - this coax cable is connected to infrastructure that runs many miles and connects a big percentage of the homes in Chicago. Imagine how much noise is picked up by these coax cables running all over the city. Yes, they are well shielded, and yes, there is an isolation device in my house (installed by Xfinity) that removes some of that noise when the cable enters inside. But it cannot remove all the noise. And this is all before the cable is plugged into my cable modem. Then the cable modem is another noise generating device on its own. And it's powered by an awful switching mode power supply that by itself generates a lot of noise too. Not only the switching mode wall wart generates noise, but it also contaminates my electrical line. Before I started using linear power supplies, I used to connect those network devices on a different power phase than my audio equipment.

Some people are lucky enough to have fiber Internet delivered into their house. I believe Taiko's facility is lucky in that regard. That might be one of the reasons some of us give more attention to the network than Taiko. Fiber optic Internet is much better, because the fiber cable entering your house is not a big antenna wiring miles and miles of households. But that fiber cable still connects to a cheap consumer device powered by a noisy switching mode power supply. You are in a much better position but still nod ideal.

Then you have a WiFi in your house that also impacts your system in multiple different ways. On one side the WiFi signal in close proximity to your system has negative effects. This is actually what triggered this post. I woke up this morning and my system did not sound as good as it usually does. Apparently while cleaning my house someone has moved one of my WiFi access point very close to my system. I moved it further away and everything came back to normal. This was a real eye opener.
Back to the Wifi... on the other end, you have a copper cable that connects back to my network that also contaminates the network with noise generated by the WiFi device. And also you have another wall wart switching mode power supply that is potentially contaminating the power grid.

What do we do to make the situation better? In case of a cable Internet, I do the following:
1. Get rid of the crappy all-in-one devices sent by my ISP. You can think of this as replacing an A/V Receiver with separates - monoblocks, linestage, DAC, etc. The "separates" are:
- better quality dedicated cable modem - Arris SB8200 in my case.
- better quality dedicated router - Ubiquiti Edgerouter X SFP in my case.
- better quality WiFi access point - AmpliFi HD WiFi System by Ubiquiti in my case.
2. Get rid of the crappy wall wart switching mode power supplies and use better linear power supplies to power my equipment. That helps in two ways - less noise goes back to my power line and the device I am powering generates a little bit less noise. It also provides better regulated / cleaner power to the components inside the device I am powering which improves oscillators, reduces jitter, etc. but let's not go there.
3. Move the WiFi away from the audio system and isolate the WiFi access point from my router via a fiber optic cable. I wish I could illustrate that in a short video clip. The WiFi device is attacking your system in 3 different ways. It generates wireless signal that could be harmful when the device is close to your system. It generates noise that get send back via your copper CAT5/6/7/8 network cable. And it pollutes your power line with its crappy wall wart. By keeping it away from your system, isolating with a fiber optic cable and powering with a LPS you address all 3 issues to some extent.
4. Add a couple of switches with very clean power and better clocks. One is by my cable modem and router. The other one is by my audio system. They are connected with a fiber optic cable, which is yet another level of noise isolation between my main network equipment and my listening room.

My system always benefited from Nenon advice !
I followed his path and I must say that you can make the Taiko extreme to sound absolutely amazing .
I have TAS and Taiko driver 5.0 . Edward was so kind to install it few weeks ego on my extreme.
From the other hand the bad network and not isolated wifi can impact the quality very significant.

I will add few things to already great Nenon Advice:

1. Wifi is NOT the best. I use wire to my ipad and wire router.
it is so much better. Wifi is a horrible thing. I am happy without it .
2. The more switches the better for Taiko extreme .
I have 4 Buffalo switches and 2 are with pink faun clocks.
Tried to remove some or all of them, but in my case it simply cant work.
I keep all of them in chain as this is must to have in my setup.
3. The best possible power supply is the best investment.
I got 6 rails of Sean Jacobs DC4 from Nenon and this is truly fantastic power supply.
it is a way better than the PH SR7 I had. Sold all PH SR7 I had (single regulator) And exchanged them for newest SJ DC4 With CX filters.
4. Having great experience with adding PinkFaun clocks in my Buffalo switches I worked with Jord from Pink Faun to install the clocks in my edgerouter and my modem.
It was the first use this clocks in router and Jord had to make the exclusive board for
the clock that runs edgerouter. It works excellent . Fantastic addition to the already great system.
So now I have regular modem with PinkFaun clock and edgerouter with Pinkfaun clock.
in comparison to standard modem and standard router it is simply much much better.
everything is much better.
yes, you need to use also DC4 s or simmilar quality supply for the clocks and devices, but it is worth.
5. All is connected by copper Ethernet cables from Sablon. Mark did a great job with that.

So in summary of my experience is that all of this really elevates the Taiko Extreme SQ to different levels.
4 Buffalow switches with pinkfaun clocks + top power supplys
1 Modem Fiber optic to ethernet with pinkfaun clock + top power supplys
1 Edgerouer with pinkfaun clock.+ top power supplys

No you do not have to have it all , but if you do you will take all the best from truly the best server ever created. Thanks to Taiko Team !
in fact my sreaming sounds now better than local files on extreme.

I think we are all very lucky to have Emile, Edward and all others from Taiko Team.

 

[EuroDriver]

My system always benefited from Nenon advice !
I followed his path and I must say that you can make the Taiko extreme to sound absolutely amazing .
I have TAS and Taiko driver 5.0 . Edward was so kind to install it few weeks ego on my extreme.
From the other hand the bad network and not isolated wifi can impact the quality very significant.

I will add few things to already great Nenon Advice:

1. Wifi is NOT the best. I use wire to my ipad and wire router.
it is so much better. Wifi is a horrible thing. I am happy without it .
2. The more switches the better for Taiko extreme .
I have 4 Buffalo switches and 2 are with pink faun clocks.
Tried to remove some or all of them, but in my case it simply cant work.
I keep all of them in chain as this is must to have in my setup.
3. The best possible power supply is the best investment.
I got 6 rails of Sean Jacobs DC4 from Nenon and this is truly fantastic power supply.
it is a way better than the PH SR7 I had. Sold all PH SR7 I had (single regulator) And exchanged them for newest SJ DC4 With CX filters.
4. Having great experience with adding PinkFaun clocks in my Buffalo switches I worked with Jord from Pink Faun to install the clocks in my edgerouter and my modem.
It was the first use this clocks in router and Jord had to make the exclusive board for
the clock that runs edgerouter. It works excellent . Fantastic addition to the already great system.
So now I have regular modem with PinkFaun clock and edgerouter with Pinkfaun clock.
in comparison to standard modem and standard router it is simply much much better.
everything is much better.
yes, you need to use also DC4 s or simmilar quality supply for the clocks and devices, but it is worth.
5. All is connected by copper Ethernet cables from Sablon. Mark did a great job with that.

So in summary of my experience is that all of this really elevates the Taiko Extreme SQ to different levels.
4 Buffalow switches with pinkfaun clocks + top power supplys
1 Modem Fiber optic to ethernet with pinkfaun clock + top power supplys
1 Edgerouer with pinkfaun clock.+ top power supplys

No you do not have to have it all , but if you do you will take all the best from truly the best server ever created. Thanks to Taiko Team !
in fact my sreaming sounds now better than local files on extreme.

I think we are all very lucky to have Emile, Edward and all others from Taiko Team.

Fascinating report !

Kris has one of the lowest if not the lowest noise floor DAC systems with a unique TotalDAC d1-24 with multiple TotalDAC re-clockers.

When lockdown is over in Europe, I will be visiting Kris on my European road trip

 

[dminches]

3. The best possible power supply is the best investment.
I got 6 rails of Sean Jacobs DC4 from Nenon and this is truly fantastic power supply.
it is a way better than the PH SR7 I had. Sold all PH SR7 I had (single regulator) And exchanged them for newest SJ DC4 With CX filters.

When I replaced my server's power supply with the DC4 it was the first time I really started to feel emotionally involved with digital music. It is that good. The Extreme has taken this to an even greater level. Power is (almost) everything.

 

[matthias]

My system always benefited from Nenon advice !
I followed his path and I must say that you can make the Taiko extreme to sound absolutely amazing .
I have TAS and Taiko driver 5.0 . Edward was so kind to install it few weeks ego on my extreme.
From the other hand the bad network and not isolated wifi can impact the quality very significant.

I will add few things to already great Nenon Advice:

1. Wifi is NOT the best. I use wire to my ipad and wire router.
it is so much better. Wifi is a horrible thing. I am happy without it .
2. The more switches the better for Taiko extreme .
I have 4 Buffalo switches and 2 are with pink faun clocks.
Tried to remove some or all of them, but in my case it simply cant work.
I keep all of them in chain as this is must to have in my setup.
3. The best possible power supply is the best investment.
I got 6 rails of Sean Jacobs DC4 from Nenon and this is truly fantastic power supply.
it is a way better than the PH SR7 I had. Sold all PH SR7 I had (single regulator) And exchanged them for newest SJ DC4 With CX filters.
4. Having great experience with adding PinkFaun clocks in my Buffalo switches I worked with Jord from Pink Faun to install the clocks in my edgerouter and my modem.
It was the first use this clocks in router and Jord had to make the exclusive board for
the clock that runs edgerouter. It works excellent . Fantastic addition to the already great system.
So now I have regular modem with PinkFaun clock and edgerouter with Pinkfaun clock.
in comparison to standard modem and standard router it is simply much much better.
everything is much better.
yes, you need to use also DC4 s or simmilar quality supply for the clocks and devices, but it is worth.
5. All is connected by copper Ethernet cables from Sablon. Mark did a great job with that.

So in summary of my experience is that all of this really elevates the Taiko Extreme SQ to different levels.
4 Buffalow switches with pinkfaun clocks + top power supplys
1 Modem Fiber optic to ethernet with pinkfaun clock + top power supplys
1 Edgerouer with pinkfaun clock.+ top power supplys

No you do not have to have it all , but if you do you will take all the best from truly the best server ever created. Thanks to Taiko Team !
in fact my sreaming sounds now better than local files on extreme.

I think we are all very lucky to have Emile, Edward and all others from Taiko Team.

This is quite a contrast to de-tweaking

Matt

 

[Kris]

Fascinating report !

Kris has one of the lowest if not the lowest noise floor DAC systems with a unique TotalDAC d1-24 with multiple TotalDAC re-clockers.

When lockdown is over in Europe, I will be visiting Kris on my European road trip

Cant wait for that.
It will be a true pleasure to welcome you here Edward.
Make sure to book few days
There are so many aspects that play a role and can be tested once you are here .

 

[matthias]

@Kris

With such a sophisticated network does it sound any better when the network is disconnected from the Extreme?
Thanks

Matt

 

[matthias]

in fact my sreaming sounds now better than local files on extreme.

Wow, super

Matt

 

[Steve Williams]

Thanks to Taiko Team !
in fact my sreaming sounds now better than local files on extreme.

I'm impressed as that's a pretty bold statement

 

[matthias]

I'm impressed as that's a pretty bold statement

Agree,
to draw a conclusion according to Kris' set-up I would have to spend for the network about the same amount as for Extreme.

Possibly the Taiko USB card (which Kris does not have yet) has such a great impact on SQ that network tweakings are no longer important.

Matt